COUNTY LOAN PROPOSALS.

Gisborne Times, Volume XXVI, Issue 2091, 17 January 1908, Page 2

COUNTY LOAN PROPOSALS.

CR. W. D. LYSNAR’S BIG LOAN ESTIMATE OF YEARLY EXPENDITURE SUBMITTED. THE QUESTION OF TRAMWAYS. nothing definitely decided. MEETING BREAKS UP IN CONFUSION. Tho special mooting in connection with tho proposal to borrow £200,000 for tho county roads was hold, yesterday morning. . Present: The lion. Capt. Tucker (in tho chair), .md Crs. F. J. Lysnar, R. Sherratt, H. Kenway, J. Bolanu, W. D. S. McDonald, and W. D. Lysnar. Cr. AY. D Lysnar apoligisod lor tho absence of Cr. A. Fordo Matthews, who he said was in favor of tho proposal being put to tho polls. In accordance with notice, Cr. v\. D. Lysnar moved that tho necessary steps' bo tulion to plaoo before the ratepayers a proposal to. borrow £2011,000 in accordance with tho schedule attached to tho report, with the following alterations: —That £OOOO shall ho first deducted for Lho purchase of machinery, and that for tho purpose of this loan tho boundaries of AVhataupoko bo ex-ton-decl so a;: to include all tho proparties which are served by, and use exclusively lho back AVhataupoko and Kaiti voids, and. which are included in either the AVaimata or lolaga ridings, and for this purpose tho Clerk to deduct tho properties from the AVaimata. and Tologa ridings so excepted, and add the same to tho AVhataupoko. riding. That m any case where tho loan money has not boon apportioned by the schedule attached to tho committee’s report to all roads in each riding, the Clerk shall further apportion them in the same manner as tho others have boon apportioned after making tho general deduction of £3OOO for machinery as aforesaid. Also that a separate vote ho taken authorising tho raising of £27,000, to bo applied for tho purpose of constructing a tram lino and necessary rolling stock from AVI Pore-street, AVhataupoko, to AVaihirere and Patutuhi quarries, in terms of the Tramways Act and of lho third proposal of Mr. AA . L. Rees’ offer of this day, also upon the other terms and conditions for leasing the same, with power reserved to the Council to resume control of the same, and upon all the other terms and conditions stated in the said proposals. As well as providing for the payment provided for in the AVhntatutu committee’s report, stipulating for £12,000 for a trainline from Puha to AVhatntutu, and the payment, of tho various sums referred "to, and for any other similar works in either ridirtgs. This was an addition to tho original motion. Cr. AA r . D. Lysnar stated that the Wlntatutu and Man gat u settlers had considered the matter, and lie handed tho committee’s report to the Council'. The Chairman asked what was the AYiiutatutu committee’s meetings, and Cr. Lysnar explained that- the meeting had been held on Saturday night. Cr. McDonald objected to this matter being brought up, as it was only from a few who had been misrepresented. Cr. Kemvav rose to a point of order. They had nothing to do with a AVlirtututu meeting, and had to consider the loan proposals. The Chairman said that the more discursive the sneaker was the more confuse-cl the matter became. Whai the AA'hatatntu people wanted was beside tho mark at present. Or. Lysnar raid that it made no difference to the Chairman’s or any riding, but only to bis (the speaker’s). The AVhatatutu people desired their quota to ho spent on a tramway, unless it was properly stated the Council’s hands would be tied, and ho <l:d not want aiiy confusion.

The Chairman said that- every constituency would want different proposals. Cr. Lysnar replied that there wa« no objection to that.

Cr. Kenway again rose to the point of order. If this went on. the issue would bo clouded. The Chairman concurred. Cr. Lysnar said that Cr. Kenway should not try to shut his mouth. Cr. AlcDonald supported Cr. Kenway. If they wanted tramways let them raise special loans. The Chairman said that he could not add to his motion, and ho challenged Cr. Lysnar to prove hit right. He ruled that it could not bo imported. Cr. Lysnar would have to give notice. The notice of motion was already sufficiently involved for an ordinary-minded person. Cr. Lysnar moved that he bo allowed to add tiro words. The Chairman stated that if the Council desired to allow it ho would do so.

A discussion took place as to whether the motion was in order.

The motion was allowed, und was carried by 4 to 3. Cr. Lysnar stated that by confining themselves to 4d rate they would not only have enough for maintenance ,but in the fifth year there would bo a surplus of £SB74, that was allowing for the increase of the past years. The ratio of increase of this country had been at the rate of 133 p.c., and lie would put- caleulalations before the Council of an increase of 88 p.c., saying nothing for native lands coming into the market, and nothing for grazing runs, increase of valuation, and he said on this basis that the calculation was not a high one. He had not curtailed the maintenance until after two years, then there would bo a reduction. With, a penny rate on our present valuation in 5 years’ time there would bo a surplus of £4794. Ho had ascertained what metal had been placed on the road to the Patutahi quarry, and was told that it was 2650 yards at 12s per yard, and £ISOO had been paid for maintenance, and the Engineer did not think it a quarter of the amount necessary. as the road was going back. That was one road, but if the proposals were carried, that item would disappear, and they would have a tramway which would reduce the cost and take off the wear and tear. If that road was put into good order, would anybody , say that with that expenditure it was going to cost .the same amount? The Chairman held with the opinion , and Cr. Lysnar said he did not giro much for the Chairman’s opinion. The Chairman said that generally the expenditure would increase after the loan. Cr. Kenway hoped that Cr. Lysnar would not use irritating remarks, and the Chairman addressed a remark to .five offending Councilllor. and he said ho had not offended, and that some said childish things. Referring to maintenance, the Chairman said that to metal roads and leave them would involve a greater expenditure. Cr. Lysnar said .that hill roads would cost more, as there were slips to he contended with, and this was about. 180 miles all tolil, according to tile Engineer. This would out of 800 to. 1000 miles of road, about 000 of which would require no expenditure for five or six years. Other Councillors thought the figures wrong, and that the proportion was the other way about. On the Patutiihi road alone £9-540 would he saved in the five years by the Chairman’s admission, and therefore it lu--1 me a duty of.the Councillors to vote for such a saving. The Chairman said that lie did not say that. He said that probable when the 'road was properly put into condition, the maintenance would be considerably reduced. He did not think the saving would be anything like so much. The Engineer was brought in at tins, stage, and lie backed up Cr. Lvrsliar's statements. The Engineer stated in renly to Or. Kenway that, up to five years the expenditure would be very small hut; after that- it would considerably increase. This saving, continued Cr. I,vsnar. would pay interest on the £200,000 for twelve months. Ho told the 'Alangutu people, and he be-

liovod it to bo correct, that the County could go on with id rate. A Councillor said that lie. wanted the loan and thou secede. ißy secession they could not get the advantage they wished. If they had l Id, including special rates, ho would bo for secession. 110 did not wish 'it to bo about that ho was acting on fulso pretences, lie again referred' to tho number of miles of flat roads, and when it was questioned lie called (n tho Engineer. Tlio Engineer said there woro about GOO miles in tho County, and hill roads were about 180. Tho merged Road Board roads were not included, and ho thought that most of these roads woro flat, except Nga.tapa. The Aral road was missed out, and that would add seven' miles. The Chairman said that it was almost incredible that loss than onctliird of the city roads wore flat. The Engineer adhered to his statement, .and stated that it was approximately correct. Tho total roads would bo about 800 miles, 215 of which were flat; this was with Road Board roads. . Cr. Lysnar admitted that tho 'Jinj roads would cost as much as .they did now, but tho flat roads would cost very litte. ... The Engineer said that it was the hill roads whiclv would cost tho money. Regarding tlio P&tutahi road, lie understood that with tho tramline tho maintenance worn! ho almost nil. If the tram-line was not placed on tho road, thJo maintenance would bo a fair amount. On the Ormond road there would not be any serious charges for five years, as the railway lino took tho traffic, and after tluo five years the cost would be gradually increasing. Cr. Lysnar said that a ratepayer bur miles from town bad great difficulties in getting his supplies, .and he vas naving total rates of 4d. hilc such V state of affairs existed t-htoy were not doing their duty. Roads 'valid never’bo made out of rates; : hey should bo mad© from loans, for which posterity was to pay. Regarding tho tramways, he read, tho AA-ha-tatiitu committee’s report, previously published. It cot aside £12,100 for tho tramway and loans. The Chairman asked why the loan was to pav existing loans. The speaker replied that as they had the road, the loan could pay off tho old loan. The Kaiteratahi bridge loan won'd he wiped out. Tho Chairman said that tho object was to have good roads, and not to pay off old loans. - Same discussion took place on future increased values. Cr. Kenwav remarking that Cr. Lysnar s 40 per cent, increase in two years and another 40 per cent, the following three years was far too rosy for him. He put- it down at more like. 20 per cent. Cr. Sherratt thought that the mreaso would not be so great in the text six yeans as in the past period. Cr. Lysnar said that nothing was al'owed* for native lands, and this woukl be a very considerable item. Before 1 p.m. the Chairman inquired if the Councillors proposed to finish. Cr. Lysnar said it would take anjtlier hour. Cr. Boland said he had come 36 mils?, and did not want an adjournment. Cr. McDonald saw no possibility of finishing. The meeting then adjourned unti the afternoon.

Cr. Lysnar put the folio will" esti mat© before the Council: —Estimate of County rates and expenditure for the next 5 veal's. —

First, year spent first £50,000 loan. —ld rate £9209. Government subsidy £2500. total £11.709; no interest (paid out of loan): Full maintenacr £9OOO. cost- of administration £2623 surplus £B6, total £11,709. Second year spent second £50,000 loan. —Id " rate on present vahu £9209, ditto on increased valuation for 3 years, sav 40 per,cent., £3BOO Government subsidy £2300, lota ' £15,509; full maintenance £9OOO cost of administration £2623, 1 year’f interest and sinking fund on £50,000. £2250; total, £13,873—£1636. Third year spent third £50,000 or loan. —id rate on increased -valuation £13,009. Government subsidy £2500: total, £15.509; maintenance reduced by one-third, say £6OOO cost of administration £2623, 1 year’s interest' on £IOO,OOO, £4500; total. £13,123—£2386. Fourth year spent fourth £50,000 of loan. —id rate £13,000, Government subsidy £2500, surplus from previous year £2356; total, £17,895: maintenance reduced to half £4500 cost of administration £2623, 1 year’s interest on £15.000 £6750; total £13,873—£4002. Fifth year whole loan spent.—Sur plus £4022. id rate on old valuation £13,009. Id rate on further increased valuation (on 'another 40 per cent, valuation) £3BOO. Government subsubsidy £2500; total, £23.831; hal 1 ' maintainauee £4500, cost administra tion £2623. one year’s interest or C 200.000 £9000; total, £16,123; sur plus, £7708.

Or equalling £d rate on presen valuation (which is two years’ old and in five years would be equal t seven years’ increased valuation t: work on) £13,813, Government sub ?i<ly, £2500; totalling £16,313: d. duct above £16,123; balance, £l9O Or, if a Id rate on present valuation was struck, five years henothere would he a surplus of £4791 to say nothing about -increased values for seven years, which then would Ik available.

County values for Europeans’ lam 1 only. £3,0033,640; 1905, £4,386,062; equal ling increase of 133 per cent, on six vears on above calculations; have a] lowed onl yBO per cent, increase valuation, and allowed nothing for Native lands, and nothing for probable in crease in grazing rum?. In the afternoon, Cr. Lysnar handed in All W.L. Rees’ written offer of a tramway from Patutalii to AA’hatatutu. as published yesterday. He explained the offer in detail. Regarding tin quarry tramline, it relieved the heavy expenditure'of the roads near town and the whole County should contri bute. This proposal would not cost the ratepayers one farthing. Tina were asked to stake their credit foi £27.000. for which Air. Rees would find a guarantee of free carriage and give a clear profit of 24 p.c. Om result would be that the heavy weai and tear of the roads would be obviated. The Borough Council gain about £ISOO annually. He pointed out that Patutalii would gain a bridge right behind their settlement. If the Councillors refused to voti for this now, they were usurping tin privileges the ratepayers should exercise. He suggested that the actual vote should be taken when there war full meeting. Cr. Sherratt said that tlio line would he alongside the railway line. Cr .Lysnar replied that the railwin rates were too high. Cr. Lysnar said that tlio line wm already being laid <at. AYhatututu. Some seemed to think it was too good. He proposed that the vote he taken this morning. Replying to criticisms last meeting, ho said that Cr. AlcDonahl l said, that his ratepayers did not require the loan for the highways ami byways. If his ratepayers were against it they could record their rotes that way. Cr. McDonald said that if they sort •that right ho would be quite satistied, but they would be hound bv the County. Cr. Kenway sakl C-r. Lysnar was frightened at the 1 p.c. If they con’d not get it at that price they would not get it at all. Cr. AfcDonald. lie said, wanted more. Cr. AlcDonald: I don’t want anv at .all. Cr. Lysnar : You’re easily satisfied. The Chairman said-lie was the first to suggest in'oney being borrowed for roads, hut not on such a basis. Cr. Lysnar said there was no fairer basis, and this suited the Tola go Bay people. Cr. Bolaml said that that was not approved by a general meeting. Cr. Lysnar maintained! -that this, was the only way, and lie would resist any alteration of the basis of contributions upon rateable value. The question of -a seconder cropped up. Cr. Boland 1 declining to second the tramway portion of the resolution. The motion was split into two. Cr. Sherratt seconded the tramway portion, hut explained tbit lie did not imply that’he would vote for it. The Chairman stated that it seemed the practice here to oppose something and then to vote for it, anil vice versa,

Cr. Sherratt then declined to second tho motion, and it was seconded bv Cr. F. J. Lysnar. Cr. Kenway said that tho committeo did not consult the Engineer. _ Cr. AV. D. Lysnar said this was incorrect.

Cr. F. J. Lysnar: Aro wo to believe the report? Tho Chairman said that to his recollection they did not have any testimony of the Engineer for or against.

Cr. Ken way said that a road in bis district gave very great-trouble, and caused much expense. It was ridiculous to suppose that a riding like AVaikohu should 1)© allowed to spend tho money as they pleased. There was no fairness in'the allocation, aril the AVaikohu riding should contribute to Gisborne. The roads at a distance away would costa great deal for maintenance, and the back country would not really benefit at all. He never h'i-anl greater nonsenee than that a id rate would do for ten years. Tho demands on the ;ates would be greater; it was absurd to say that a id rate would pay all expenses of administration, expenses, etc. The Chairman said that Id rate would not nee them through. Cr. lvenway: A penny rato would not do. Or. \A r . D. Lysnar said that it was a wrong principle, that roads should' bo maintained out of rates.

Cr. Ken way said that local loams should be raised. It was the most unwise and misguided finance he had ever seen. Tho money market was exceedingly tight, and people were particularly shy of such Joans. , The , estimates of 40 p.c. iucreaso of valuation was excessive, -and it would not keep up as it load dome during die last ten years. There had been some hope if native Ja-nd was setiled, but/ there seemed no hope of .t. He urgeif levying a heavier rate; this would bo sound finance. He could not see the wisdom of saddling die district with this loan; there were enough loans already. The Chairman stated that loans to local bodies were about £70,000. Cr. Lysnar: That is entirely Incorrect. That- is for individual '©- cal i ties.

The Chairman : Then tho AuditorGeneral is wrong. 'Hie Chairman ruled that Cr. Kenway was right in making tho Countv debt as £70.000. Cr. Kemvay desired to proceed free liom interruptions. Cr. Lysnar positively contradicted the Chairman.

Cr. Kenway was against employin'" any third person if they decided to go in for tramways. They should do it. themselves, and if there was a risk, to accept it- boldly. A person was right to make such a proposal, but he was already trying- to make something out of it. The work should be done by public money and public bodice. They should not do it under -any consideration whatever If there was any advantage they should get it themselves. They would bo exceeding their dutv if they thought the scheme too big and shelved it on to tho ratepayer? He was against it, and if he was wrong he would not object to lose his scat-..

. The Chairman remarked .that thetime was 4 o clock, and it was convenient to adjourn. The rest of the week would be fully occupied, and he would not go on. Cr. McDonald said he had been mum b ugged over this Jong enough and lie would have to go away .n .Saturday. '

, Cl • u • D. Lysnar suggested that . . Cuairman make any remarks he " IS ‘ led > e ‘ect a, temporary chairman, «imi voi.e tins morning. ' The Chairman: We are always going on. and taking no vote. This is the special business day and we can’t get through. Cr. AV. D. Lysnar suggested meetmg in the evening. Crs. Kenwav and McDonald, said they would be . absent. The members had spoken on tlio motion.

The Chairman ruled that every person present had a right- to speak to the motion. Only Cr. Kenwaj had spoken. He took the second_part of the motion as a- new notice of motion.

Cr. Lysnar said that only the tramway part was new. The Chairman said the question was whether adjournment woukl not do for to-day. He proposed that- it stand down till the 30th January. Crs. AA. D. and F. J, Lysnar wanted it for to-day. CT. AA'. D. Lysnar moved that it be left, until to-dav.

Here a disturbance occurred, several motions being put. While the Chairman was putting a motion that die meeting adjourn until the day before next Council day, Cr. AY. D. Lysnar called out ‘Come out- of’the room. There is no quorum.” The Chairman remarked that amore reasonable way of doing tilings would have been much better. Cr. AA’. D. Lysnar: There is no quorum.

The Chairman put Cr. AlcDonald’s motion, which was carried. All left their seats and the meeting broke up. .-