PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Globe, Volume III, Issue 292, 19 May 1875, Page 2

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Tuesday, May 18. The Speaker took the chair at 5 p.m. PETITIONS.

Mr Harper presented a petition from a number of persons praying that the chief inspector have power to release from quarantine any sheep that may be declared disinfected. The petition was read and received. Mr Jebson presented a petition from residents in the Kolleston and Malvern district praying for the extension of the railway to Kowai Pass. The petition was read and received. PAPERS. The Provincial Secretary laid a number of papers on the table connected with his department. The Secretary for Public Works also laid several papers on the table. GREAT SOUTHERN RAILWAY. Dr Rayner asked, without notice, when the Southern railway would be opened to the Rangitata, and what arrangements would be made for the accommodation of travellers at the Rangitata. The Secretary fob Public Works said that it was probable the opening of the railway to the Rangitata would take place in about a fortnight. He might inform the hon member that the detention of the trains would take place at Ashburton, where, of course, every care would be taken to afford proper accommodation to travellers by the line. ADJOURNMENT. Dr Turnbull said before the House proceeded to the business of the day he wished to move that the Council do now adjourn, not that he expected it would be carried, but he did so in order that he might bring before the House a subject which most nearly affected it and its privileges. Last week the hon member for Rakaia (Mr Jebson) had moved for and obtained a Select Committee of the House to enquire into the question of a survey of a section at the Rakaia. At the time the question was before the House he (Dr Turnbull) had stated that he knew nothing about the question, but since then he had had an opportunity of becoming acquainted with the details of the case. The Speaker —l think the hon member must confine himself to the question of the adjournment of the House. Dr Turnbull thought that he might be permitted, to bring formal reasons why the House should'ad journ. The Speaker —l don’t think the hon member is in order to bring in foreign matter in moving the adjournment of the House, The standing orders most particularly lay this down. [Standing order read.}; I therefore don’t think the hon member is in order to attempt to bring forward any other' subject under cover of a motion for the adjournment of the House. Dr Turnbull, while bowing to the decision of the hon the Speaker, and acknowledging that he had the power of regulating the business of that House, yet contended that he as a member of that House had privileges which he was entitled to. He thought that under the circumstances of the appointment of the committee to which be had referred to —a committee of which the hon member who was the owner of the section referred to was a member—the House

in justice to itself and to the country could not continue to sit for one moment longer. While he said this he might say that he believed the resolution for the appointment of the committee had been brought forward at the instigation of the hon members now occupying the Government benches. [Mr Maskbll —“ No, no.”] The Speaker —The hon member is out of order. I must ask him to sit down. The hon member can give notice of motion on the subject. Dr Turnbull would of course bow to the dictum of the hon Speaker, but he would desire to point out that under the circumstances the House was not justified in sitting while a Select Committee such as the one he had alluded to was also sitting. When they found an hon member of that House sitting on a committee as a proprietor of the land which formed the subject of the enquiry of that committee, and found him not only sitting as a member of the House, but also as a member of- a Select Committee on his own case, it was not right for the Conned either as regarded their duty to the public or themselves to sit longer The Speaker— l would again remind the hon member that he is out of order, and that he cannot go on. Dr Turnbull thought it was quite right for him to bring this matter before the House. The hon member might come down

The Speaker —l think I must ask the hon member to sit down.

Dr Turnbull would bow of course to the decision of the hon the Speaker; but he must ask the Council to go into this matter. His impression The Speaker —l must again ask the hon member to sit down. [Order, order.] If some amount of order is not observed it will be impossible for the business of the House to be carried on. [Hear, hear.] The subject then dropped. agricultural and pastoral association. Mr Gray asked whether it is the intention of the Government to recommend that a reserve of land should be made as an endowment for the Canterbury Agricultural and Pastoral Association, as asked for by a deputation to the Government of that association ? The Provincial Secretary said the Government could not accede to the request, as the association named was not a pubLc association. It was therefore not in the power of the Government to grant the request contained in the notice of the hon member. public libraries ordinance. The Provincial Secretary moved for leave to introduce a Bill intituled the Public Libraries’ Ordinance, 1876. The motion was agreed to, the Bill read a first time, ordered to be printed, and the second reading fixed for next sitting day. ROAD BOARD POWERS, Mr Wynn Williams moved—“ That in the opinion of this house it is desirable that legislation should be promoted in the General Assembly with the view of consolidating and confirming the powers of Boad Boards ; and also for vesting the soil of the public roads in Boad Boards; and also for defining the powers of Boad Boards to take measures for preventing injury to roads, and for recovering damages from any person who may obstruct the same, or cause injury to the same, by closing drains and other watercourses; and further to define the powers of Boad Boards to sue and be sued in the inferior courts.” This Bill was introduced from a very general wish that was expressed both inside and outside the House. If the motion were agreed to, the Provincial Government would take care that communications were opened up with the Attorney General on the subject. Mr Knight moved as an amendment ihat the word “ confirming” in the third line be omitted, and the word “extending” substituted, also that the words “ defining the powers of” be struck out, and the word “ empowering” substituted ; also in the last line ithat the word “define” be struck out, and tthe word “ empower” substituted in lieu thereof. The amendments were agreed to, and the resolution as amended passed as a whole. SHEEP ORDINANCE, 1875, Mr Wynn Williams moved for leave to introduce a Bill entitled the Sheep Ordinance, 1876. Leave was given, the Bill read a first time, and ordered to be printed. DIVERSION OF ROADS SPECIAL ORDINANCE, NO. 4, 1875. . This Bill, on the recommendation of the Select Committee appointed to consider it, was discharged. RESERVE NO. 93A ORDINANCE. On the motion of Mr Wynn Williams, this Bill, which was reported against by the same committee, was discharged. ROAD BOARD ADVANCES ORDINANCE. This. Bill was read a third time and passed. THE EDUCATION ORDINANCE. Mr Wynn Williams, in moving the second reading of this Bill, said :—I shall require (although I shall do so as briefly as possible) to occupy your attention for some time. It will be admitted by all that the present system of education introduced by the Ordinance of 1873 has advanced with such rapid strides as to have taken many of us at any rate with surprise. I think I may say we did not anticipate at the time the Act was passed that so large a call would so soon be made upon our resources. Whether this be so or not, the fact that we have to deal with a rapidly increasing demand for the support of the system is evident. Not only was there at the time a large number of children just advancing to the age when they would have to be sent to school, but since then there has been a very large influx of population, and most of those who bring families generally come with young children. The serious question, therefore, which arises is, as to how we are to provide for the coming year, at any rate, for this all important branch of the public service. I need hardly say that the Government have given a great deal of attention to the prospects before us ; and, with the assistance of the Council, we propose to deal with them for the present financial year in a manner that we trust may meet with your approval. By "the recommendations of the Board of Education it will be seen that they suggest a property tax in lieu of the household rate -of £l, to provide for maintenance. They are as fallows “ Clause 22 The word "December” in the first line be expunged, and “ March ” inserted in lieu thereof; also the word “thirty-first” be inserted in lieu of “fifteenth” in the third line, and “ December ” inserted in lieu of the word “October” in the fourth line. Clause 28—That district auditors be abolished, and that committees be not less ‘than three nor more than six; that half of

the committee retire annually, and eligible for re-election. Clause 29 —That the word “January be inserted in lieu of the word “ October ” in the seventh line. Clause 30— To be expunged. Clause 31—That the word “January” in the first line be inserted in lieu of the word “ October.” Clause 32 To be expunged as far as regards election of auditors. Clause 42—That the rate for buildings should be a property rate levied upon the owners and not upon the tenant, unless there is a lease for a term of years. That after the word “householders ” in the fifteenth line, the following be inserted; “ or if the committee request the Board in writing that a rate may be levied.” Clause 46 —To be expunged. Clause 48 That the words from “ and ” in the third line to “teachers ” in the fourth line, be expunged. Clause 52—That the following words be ingerted—“ Should the rate of Is not be sufficienttopay one-sixth, the Board is authorised to put up the necessary school buildings. Clause 55—That the taxation for maintenance of schools be altered from a household tax to a property tax —that education be “compulsory.” Clause 62—The Board recommends no alteration. Clause 64—The following words be added, “Provision be made for teaching vocal music.” C ause 66 —The words “ receiving aid ” in the third line be struck out. Clause 69—That words from “ and ” in marginal note line eight to “ moneys ” in tenth line be struck out. Clause 70—The word “ may ” to be inserted in lieu of “ shall.” That the carrying out of a depot should not be “ imperative,” Clause 71 —That “ school committees or” to be inserted after the word “ any ” in the first line; and after the word “ auditor ” the following words be added, “ between the 31st December and 31st January” 74—That “ratepayer” shall be defined instead of “ householder.” That the Board is divided in opinion as to the payment of a honorarium to the chairman or his being a paid officer of|the Government.” There can be no doubt that we have arrived at a period when these questions must be faced. That the tax would fall very heavily on all classes cannot also for a moment be doubted, added as it would be to the already heavy taxation of the country which now exists. Our object should be, however to endeavor to make the tax as equitable as possible. To succeed in making it entirely so is not to be expected. One advantage, however, will accrue which cannot be considered in any other light than as a very important one. It will conduce to that economy in the expenditure of the funds, which cannot be said to be the experience of the past. With regard to the question of economy, the Government consider that it is the general opinion of this House, and has been so for some time, that there should be a totally different machinery for the control of the public funds connected with this department, I am quite aware that I am about to touch upon very delicate ground in entering upon this part of the question. But it has to be dealt with. I trust it is hardly necessary for me to say that every person recognises the valuable services that not only under the present system, but for years past, havebeen rendered to the cause of education. It has been a very thankless duty in one sense; yet at the same time I think those gentlemen who have given so much time and labor in a great cause, will feel that their exertions cannot be said to pass unrewarded, when they see around them far and near the great results of their labors. This of itself is a great reward, and must be a source of pride and satisfaction to those who have taken part in this great work. I must now come, however, to the dry details of the question. The fault of the system of management appears to be this, that it is conducted by an entirely irresponsible body. This, 1 may say, is the gist of the whole question as connected with the Board. It has on several occasions been considered that a scheme for an elective Board was feasible. But in coming to deal with this subject it was found to be quite impracticable. Shortly it would amount to this: either the Board should consist of members to be elected by a few of the districts in the neighborhood of Christchurch, or on the other hand there should be a member for each of certain districts, extending over the whole province. The first pro posal, it must be admitted, would be most unsatisfactory to the districts that were not directly represented. The second scheme would be, in the present state of the country, perfectly inoperative. Gentlemen could not possibly attend to their duties on the Board if they had to come from great distances, and the requirements of the department are such, that even weekly meetings of the Board can hardly suffice to give that necessary attention to details, and the control over expenditure, which is absolutely required. As a matter of fact, the chairman of the Board has for some time been intrusted with certain important duties on behalf of the Board. By the present Act, section 18, it will be seen that the Board has entire control over the expenditure of public money voted for educational purposes. The Government of this province has therefore not got that responsibility cast upon it for the expenditure of these funds, which it undoubtedly ought to have as representing this Council. I am aware that it has been suggested as a remedy that there should be a Secretary of Education appointed by the Government, who should be assisted by a Board, and that both should be under the Government. This proposal, however, it appears, to me, would involve us in great difficulties. We should have one power, that is the Government, responsible to this.; House, and another, the Board, partly responsible to the Government. I think that such a scheme would prove to be entirely inconvenient when brought into operation, as we should probably have constant differences of opinion between the Board and the Government, which would probably lead to members of the Board being frequently changed, the result of cofistant resignations. In fact, to quote a homely simile, it would be a case of too many cooks spoiling the broth. The Government have given very serious consideration to the difficulties surrounding the question, and the result of their deliberations is this, they consider that direct responsibility to this House should rest with the Executive, and in order to ensure this result, they propose that the management of all educational matters which would necessarily come under the charge of a department should be in the hands of a secretary for education, under the direct control of the Government, as in the case of every other Government department. The Government is aware that there are some hon members who are of opinion that the office should be a Ministerial one. But there are very serious objections to this particular office being liable to the results of Ministerial agitations, which frequently result in sudden changes of

Government. The result of these changes would be that the department having control of the most important branch of our public service, and one peculiarly requiring an experienced officer at its head, would in all probability suffer by the change from men who had held the office for some time to those who were entirely inexperienced in its duties. The Government have therefore decided npon the course I have indicated, and it will be found embodied in the first few clauses of the Bill. I now come to the next important change in the provisions of the previous Ordinance, and that is with regard to the school committees. There has for some time existed a strong feeling that the present constitution of the committees is unsatisfactory. One reason why it is so is, that when the committee consists of the full number of nine, the annual election of so large a number at once, frequently results in an unsatisfactory manner. The same interest is not taken, as there would most likely be, if fewer vacancies had ito be filled, and it also entails unnecessarily both on electors and elected the inconveniences attaching to a general election. It is thought by many that a better system would be, that a proportionate number of the members of the committees should retire each year. In order to adopt the simplest plan for carrying out this proposal, we have altered the numbers of the members to four, six, or eight, and by clause 22 it will be found that provision is made for one-half retiring every year. The 20th clause was necessary in order to make provision for the period from the second Monday in October next to April, 1876. I now come to the consideration of what I think must be generally admitted as the most important part of this Bill which is offered for your consideration, that is the rating clauses. My hon friend the Provincial Secretary has already informed you that we have considered the proposal of the Board of Education that a property tax in lieu of the household rate of £1 should be levied for the maintenance of schools. The Government, however, have adhered to the mode of levying the tax already provided by the present Education Act, This is one of those questions which must necessarily engage the serious attention of the Council, as it involves the necessity of saying whether those who reap the direct advantage of the present extended system of education are to pay a fair proportion wHh those who do not directly derive that advantage fiom the use of the schools, but whose advantage consists in being, with the rest of their fellow countrymen, the inhabitants of a country where the people, as a whole, are receiving a fair elementary education. This latter body of persons represents a very large portion of the community, and there can be no doubt that, under the present system of levying the tax, they pay a far larger proportion of it than those who reap the direct benefits to be derived from the use of the schools for the education of their children. This can be very easily shewn by reference to the Municipal Statistics. The Government, therefore, hope that the Council will retain the present mode of levying this rate. The clause, it will be observed, introduces a new feature of a very important character. The Government, as has already been stated, at first proposed to raise the proportion to be paid by present existing districts for buildings, sites, &c. to one-half instead of onesixth. It is impossible to deny, as I have already stated, that this would be a very serious addition to the taxation of the country. There would necessarily ensue, if this part of the Bill were now to become law, a very diminished expenditure on school buildings and other works, and in many cases it will be found very difficult to go on with such additional works at all. In Christchurch East, for instance, there is now being built the largest district school in the province, which is calculated to give school accommodation for 1001 children, Unfortunately at the time when the site was purchased, there was a great difficulty in getting a sufficient quantity of ground, and the present site was the only one offered that at all answered the purpose, It has, however, been found far too small, and when the buildings are completed there will be little or no space left to provide playgrounds for the boys and girls separately, nor will the open ground left provide playgrounds for anything like the whole number, supposing that they are not separated. Another result also, in the opinion of the committee, of the opening of this school will be, that another school will be found at once to lie absolutely necessary, in order to afford school accommodation for the infant children, who always accompany their brothers and sisters. There are large numbers of persons who send their children to these schools who have not the means of having their younger children attended to, in the absence of the elder ones at school, consequently they have to go in charge of their elder brothers and sisters. These children cannot be taught in the class rooms with the other children, for obvious reasons; one especially being the impossibility of keeping very young children quiet; and also the great difficulty of keeping them amused. It will be therefore necessary that infant schools should be built, at any rate, in the centres of population. I need not point out how impossible it will be to carry these additions out, if one half of the costs of the buildings has to be raised by a rate. Before, however, I proceed further with the consideration of this important clause, I shall advert shortly to the financial position of the Board of Education on the subject. This, hon members will, I think, see, is necessary, because it bears very strongly upon the views of the Government with regard to the proposal to raise the contributions from one-sixth to onehalf. It will be seen when I have read to you the statement which I hold in my hand, that in many districts (as was pointed out the other evening by the hon member for Lincoln, Mr J. N. Tosswill), there are works in progress that must be proceeded with by some means or other, or the result would be that the necessary requirements of the district would for school purposes be at an end. If, therefore, these districts have to provide for these as well as their other many wants, a contribution of one-half the cost, to be levied by a rate of not exceeding one shilling in the pound, practically would result in the district having to go without their school buildings, and consequent upon that, of course their educational system would have to be abandoned. This, I need hardly say, would be a great calamity, after all that has been done to advance the education of the people. Better would it be not to have raised hopes at all than to take measures immediately afterwards which will in many districts dash those hopes to the ground. To illustrate the position I refer to, I will read to hon members the following

statement : taking some of the larges* schools as an indication of what has been done. Lyttelton has expended £5482 without, as woul 1 appear by the returns, raising any portion as a contribution; but the return should show that the contribution was made in laud. In this district it is found that no sooner was the school ready for occupation, and immediately after it was opened, the number of children attending required additional accommodation. Hon members will, I think, agree with me that this is a strong proof, indeed an absolute proof, of what I stated some short time back—viz, that the system has advanced with giant strides, and has taken us, as it were, by storm. I must beg hon members to be assured when I say that this want at Lyttelton is no exaggeration ; and it therefore has to be met from some source. The amount required by Lyttelton for this purpose is £2500, and with other necessary requirements, so as to make the schools complete, the total is £3716 Kaiapoi town has, I find, expended £4747, having contributed £458. The amount expended appears certainly to be large ; but I do not think it can be said, considering the great price of labor and material at the time, that it could well have been less. The committee of this district require about £537 to complete drainage and other works ; the former, I think, hon members will believe, being absolutely necessary. In the Christchurch West district the sum of £7704 has been expended and £1507 raised by rate as their contribution. In this district they happily got over the difficulty so far, that they have their school buildings completed, having been lortunate in the first instance in obtaining a site of, I believe, five acres, with certain school buildings already erected, at a very moderate cost. This committee also require an additional outlay, which would of course come under the supervision of the Government, with all the other proposed expenditure by the various districts, if the Council thinks fit to pass the proposed alterations in the Bill. In the Christchurch East district, there has been the sum of £11,511 expended, and a contribution by rates of £1739. This district was not so fortunate as that of Christchurch West, inasmuch as no site could be obtained for some time after the district had been declared by the Superintendent. When the only convenient site that offered was obtained, steps were taken to procure the necessary plans, and so much delay took place in settling these, that many months elapsed before any tenders could be called for. The result to the district was most serious, as by the 'time tenders came in, the price of materials and labor had so enormously increased, that the lowest tender was nearly three thousand pounds above the original estimates of the architect. I think hon members will therefore agree with me that, commenced as the schools in this district were under great pressure, as the committee were bound at all hazards to proceed with the necessary buildings for schools as the district had been declared, and as the other schools were making preparations to close, it was no light task to take in hand the furnishing of school accommodation for a district containing nearly 2500, about one-half of whom would require immediate school accommodation. The contract for the building of the large school in Gloucester street will not, I understand, be completed until September, and therefore a large portion of the expenditure on this school—viz, £3774, has yet to be paid. This sum is included in the amount of the estimates sent down by the Board. I may say the reason why so large a sum is required is that it includes, as I have stated, the balance of the contract, as well also as additional land, drainage, fencing, furniture, &c. The next district I may refer to is Colombo road, where £2676 has been spent, with a contribution of £378. This school requires an expenditure for furniture, which is of course absolutely necessary, and the total required is £378. There are many other districts which I need hardly refer to at length. I shall content myself with mentioning a f«w, such as the Oust, £906 ; Carleton, £700; Robinson’s Bay, £561 ; Flaxton, £1154 ; Geraldine, £731; German Bay, £BBO ; Halswell, £526 ; Irwell, £645 ; Timaru has expended £6470, contribution, £6O, requirements, £1823 ; Hurunui, £700; Kakahu, £679 ; Leeston, £344; Malvern, £675; Papanui, £506; Pigeon Bay, £452 ; Prebbleton, £IOOB ; and many others, making a total of £41,519. Sir, many persons think that we have gone too fast in this direction, but surely no one will deny, that it is at any rate going too fast in a noble cause. We have initiated this great scheme of education, and are we now to cry out “ hold, enough ?” Is it not rather a matter for congratulation that we find the people, even to the very furthest ends of the province, take up the question with an energy that is very rarely displayed in any cause. However, I have slightly digressed, and must now, with the permission of the House, return to figures. It will be found that the Board of Education, having obtained from the school districts, or most of them, the estimates of their requirements for the ensuing year, have forwarded them for the consideration of the Government. I now read the statement accompanying these estimates which is as follows. (Copy letter dated April 15th, 1875 ) The amounts required are summarised as follows : —School buildings, £53,970; Normal school, £9210; maintenance of schools, £33,739; scholarships, £1000; staff expenses Board of Education, £525; inspection, £1050; drill instructor, £350; contingencies, £1200; book depot, £l9O ; planting school sites, £500; interest on overdraft, Timaru, £54; total, £103,503. The figures I have just read will convince hon members of the enormous requirements of the province for expenditure in this direction, and even allowing a very wide margin for economical reduction the amount will still be great. But can any one say that it is too great ? I will not say so for one. I consider that with strict economy in the expenditure, if the population requires it, and if we can possibly find the means, we should have no hesitation in voting the money, These figures will also show another very important feature, and that is, that practically the expenditure referred to will not take place, unless this Council will deal liberally with this branch of our public service, as they have hitherto done, I now, therefore, come to the consideration of section 32. It will be recollected that my bon friend the Provincial Secretary, in his financial statement, mentioned that in order to induce a turn for economy on the part of the school committees, it would be necessary in the present financial condition of the province, that a larger contribution should be made by the districts to the funds at the disposal of the Government for building and other purposes connected with the schools, 1 have now, with the permission of this House, to state, on the part of the Govern-

ment, their determination with regard to this branch of the Bill. After giving further serious consideration to the proposed alterations of the Act, as indicated by the 4th subsection to section 40 of the present Bill, and after also considering carefully the estimates forwarded by the Board of Education, we have come to the conclusion that practically the operation of this section would be to put a stop to many of the works connected with districts already existing, as it would be impossible for them to raise by rates sufficient sums to enable them to carry out the efficient working of the schools, even allowing for reductions that must be made in order to introduce a more economical working of the whole system. Looking at the serious consequences which would result from a stoppage of these works, considering also the vital importance that the advancement of education should keep pace with our material progress, the Government consider that it will be to the interests of the province that during the financial period ending on the 31st March, 1876, the contribution to be paid by the districts under the sections referred to should be as hitherto, viz, one-sixth. Connected with this branch of the subject is the question of responsibility for the expenditure. The Government, therefore, consider that if the Bill passes with this alteration, there will be all the weightier reasons that the expenditure should be under the control of a body directly responsible to this House, and therefore there will be stronger reasons for adopting the clauses of the Bill providing for the establishment of a Government department having the entire control of the expenditure on education. When the time arrives for the further consideration of the ways and means, it will be for this House to determine what shall be the course to be adopted. It is not for me now, as a member of the Government, to say what the course of time may bring about. It will remain, therefore, for those who are in this House in 1876 to deal with this branch of the question according to circumstances. The Government consider that, in all probability, a laige proportion of the funds will, in no long time, have to be provided by taxation, if they are not carried out by loans. If, unfortunately, from absolute necessity, it is found that a larger contribution than that now proposed must be provided, it will be necessary to decide what that contribution shall be and how it shall be raised. However, “sufficient for the day is the evil thereof;” and if we can by strict ecomony provide for the ensuing year, without adopting the serious alternative’ of levying taxes for the purpose, let us do it. It cannot, I trust, be denied that the spread of education is as necessary to the future welfare of the country as are the great works we are undertaking.

Mr Montgomery said that he wished to say he expected the hon gentleman to show greater cause than he had done why they should take the control of the scheme from an independent Board and vest it in the Government. He expected to have heard something as to the extravagance of the Board, which had been spoken of, and he should have been prepared to have met it. However, he did not do so, as he had given the Board and the committees the praise of saying that if they had gone too far, they had done so in the right direction. He was rather surprised to bear this from the hon gentleman introducing this Bill, because he understood that the members of the Government held the view that that there had been much extravagance. Indeed, it would have been one of the strongest proofs in favor of the change ; but it had not been so. The hon gentleman had said that the chairman of the Board had a great deal of business entrusted to him. The facts of the case were, that the chairman had a few detail matters to settle, which came before the Board for its sanction at each meeting. The hon gentleman had said that the Board had been very easy with the requests of committees, and brought forward the payment of a sum of £9OOO in support of this statement. But the fact was that the Board asked whether the Government would pay four quarters in the nine months or not, and it was therefore the Government, and not the Board, who were to blame. It did not matter that it was the late Government, but the fact was that |the Government were to blame if there was any blame. Therefore he held that the hon gentleman had made out no case why the system should be transferred, and even if he had, the system he proposed was not. so far as he could see, the proper remedy. [Hear, hear.] As he understood it, they proposed to appoint a Secretary for Education — a subordinate officer, such as the present Secretary, and of.course responsible to a political chief. Further than this, the Government, he understood, proposed to sit as a Board on all subjects of education, but he contended that this could not be done. The gentleman who might be selected as Provincial Secretary from his ability to manage the affairs of the province, while perhaps the best for this, might not be one who would be the proper one to trust the interests of education to. The Provincial Secretary of course would have great weight in tne counsels of the Executive, and he might point out that it was necessary that the gentleman who had so large a voice in the work of education in this province should be at one with the system how established. Now, without wishing to say one word against the present Provincial Secretary, he desired to point out that he had been a consistent opponent of the present system, and he would also say that if they had an officer with such weight in the deliberations as this, giving only a formal or half-hearted support to it, they could not expect to see the system Euch a success as they all hoped it would be—and he for one could not consent to trust one who had for years been opposed to the system now established with the conduct of education. [Hear, hear, and “ No, no.”] But it would be different if they had proposed a Minister of Education. If this were the esse he would consider his personal fame involved in the way in which he conducted his department, and he would thus be responsible primarily and solely to the House. Thus, the Council would see that it would be his pride to make the department one a credit alike to him and the province. Whether it was better for a political chief to be appointed or not he did not say, but he hoped the House would not pass the Bill, because it instituted a system of divided responsibility, and one which the House would not, he believed, like to see carried out. Whatever system was out, it was essentially necessary, he believed, that every item of expenditure on education should be submitted to the House, and voted the same way as other items. If this were done, and a secretary appointed who

had the matters at his fingers’ end, the members of the Board of Education need not be troubled much. He desired also, before he sat down, to say that the Board had been most careful in the matters of In many cases where the committees had sent their estimates in—such as Carleton, Yaldhurst, and others—the Board rejected them as being too high—so as regarded East and West Christchurch, sites, fencing, swimming bath, clock, &c. In these items, which were to be put on the estimates, the Board cut them down. The hou gentleman who had just sat down, as chairman of a committee had asked for a higher sum than the Board had granted. So that he thought he had shown that the Board did exercise some supervision over the expenditure. He now came to the matter of the rating, and the hon gentleman had deprecated the use of language which was calculated to stir up ill-feeling either outside or inside that House —[ il Hear, hear,” from Hr Turnbull] —by setting class against class. The hon gentleman had said that £1 rate was a fair one, because the children received education commensurate to it, but he would point out that many children of the ratepayers were beyond school age, so that many were paying it for their children who had left school, and others, who had none, for other peoples’ children; therefore, he held that it could not be looked upon as a fair rate. They must take a higher ground than that, looking upon education as a safeguard to law and order, and that property was as much interested in that as in the police of the country. He would point out how unfair it worked. The man who had a house worth £260 a year only paid as much as a man with a house worth £3O per year. This was not fair, because, besides this, there were plenty of people who had never paid a penny towards education. He did not wish to set class against class, for he could not see that there was more virtue in the man working at his daily labor than the employer; therefore he thought the £1 rate was unfair. The property tax would, he felt sure, produce more than the £1 house rate now proposed, because it would enable those who were able to pay to do so, whi’e it pressed lightly upon those who were not so well able to afford it. Now in Victoria they built their schools free, and why should they make a tax here on individuals for what, he said, was as much a national matter as police. He held these views, and when the Bill went into committee he should endeavor to establish them. [Hear, hear.] The Bill was also faulty, because there was no provision for the children of parents who were negligent or careless being made to attend school, instead of growing up vicious and abandoned. [Hear, hear.] He was aware that there was a feeling abroad, and in that House, that they had overdone the matter of education somewhat. [Hear, hear.] Always after a great state effort there was a re-action, but this should not damp the ardour of those who were endeavoring to carry this out, and he hoped that those who were fighting for this system'of national education would not relinquish the ground they had gained, and that above all there would not be any retrogression. He was sorry to see that the Government policy was one of retrogression, and he hoped that the House would not give up one inch of the ground they had gained, or one atom of the principles. [Hear, hear.] Mr W. B. Tosswill said that they were placed in rather a peculiar position by the hon member who had brought in the Bill. After they had been told that the granting of five-sixths had been the means of exciting great extravagance, the member who had charge of the Bill came down and told them that they intended to pursue the same course, so that really they had a different Bill before them. It had been said that there had been no extravagance, but he could not agree with that, as in the central districts he contended the expenditure had been very great, not perhaps so much in the country districts, but certainly' when they come to the towns the expenditure was very large. The hon gentleman who had brought in the Bill had said with regard to Timaru that some £6OOO had been spent, while the returns had been nil, or at least £6O, which was nearly nil. Mr Williams explained that the amount of £6O was all he could find on the returns, but there was perhaps land to be taken into account, which would materially increase the contribution of Timaru.

Mr Tosswill thought this was what the hon gentleman had said, but be should like to know how it was some of the places so well able to bear it got off with such a small contribution. Respecting the rate he must say that he believed the household rate to be the very best, and that those who would have to pay the property rate did not use the schools, so that, as they were there to do justice to all classes, he could not see how it could be just to impose the rate as suggested by the hon member for Heathcote. Besides this he did not see that the amount of £3 a year could be objected to as harsh; besides there were considerable difficulties in making a property rate over the country, which would equally and equitably press on all. This was a point which the upholders of a property rate should clear up. During a former debate an hon member had said that it would be a good thing to get rid of the district school committees, but he (Mr Tosswill) could not agree with this. So far from this being the case, he felt that the cause of education had been largely assisted by the work of the school committees. ("Hear, bear ] Therefore he was glad to see that the Bill did not propose to do away with the school committees. There was one suggestion which he hoped the Government would take notice of, and that was this : 'some sessions back there was a reserve made for a school of agriculture, and he understood it now produced £IOOO a-ycar. He thought that it would be better for the Council to give a couple of scholarships in the Canterbury College open to the boys of the country district schools. He trusted the Government would let the House know what they intended to do with this reserve, as he did not think much practical good would result even if it were applied to its original purpose. Mr Gray thought that the Board of Education should be continued for say twelve months longer, as by that time all the schools would be provided. The Board had acted with great energy—shown great interest in the work, province should feel grateful to them. A change, however, was coming over the scene, as it was impossible that education could longer be carried on out of the current revenues. Taxation must come, and a property tax was not far off, and when that came, the people who had to pay it would ask and have a larger voice in the expenditure of these taxes, and the control of education would thus slip out of the hands

of the Board of Education into those of the district committees. The fact was that the Board of Education was far too high-flown in their notions of education, and far too liberal in their dealing with money. They were prone to educate their children too highly —in fact, the result would be that they would have them coming out into the world as loafers because there would be a dearth of situations good enough for them to fill. Therefore it was that he said, let them give their children a fair English education and fit them for the real work of the world. If the control remained with ’the Board they would have a genteel pauper population instead of an educated people. Mr J. N. Tosswill was surprised to hear the speech of the hon Provincial Solicitor, because he expected to hear the Board of Education denounced in no measured terms. As it was, the hon gentleman’s speech was a string of apologies for the expenditure of money, especially in the East Christchurch district. Indeed, he might as well have been a Minister of Education, giving the House an account of what had been done. ["Hear, hear.] He would desire to point out that it wasjimpossible for many new districts to get up their schools however much they might be necessary; and also, it would be impossible for them to classify the districts. He was glad to find that the Government intended to abandon their first proposition as to one-half being required from a district as its contribution. There was now only the question as to whether there should be a Board of Education or not, and had they persisted in the other provision, it would have been manifestly unfair, because if they charged 10s extra on the rates, it was only right that they should give all facilities for the erection of schools, wnich would be retarded by the increase of the contribution. As regarded the question of the property tax, he was sorry that the Government did not see their way clear to adopt the suggestion of the Board. [Hear, hear,] He held that property was entitled to contribute its fair share, not intermittently as now in the collection of the rate, but annually, as other rates. Now he came to the real question at issue, viz., the substitution of the Superintendent for the Board of Education, with a Secretary for Education. This meant the Provincial Secretary ; and while admitting the great administrative ability of the Provincial Secretary and his moderation, he stated at once that he was not the man to hold the control of the education department. Now, in a speech of the hon member in 1873, he had spoken against the National Education League, whose objects were to educate all children, quite irrespective of denominations. Therefore he said that the Provincial Secretary was not one whom the House or the country would like to see at the head of educational affairs. [Hear, hear.] While saying this, however, he must at once deprecate that he for a moment imputed any personal motives to the hon Provincial Secretary, far from it; but he thought that the House weld see from what he had quoted that the hon genleman from his being a consistent opponent of the system was scarcely the proper person to have the control of it. He might also, apart from this, point out that with the head of education being a political onicer they would have no continuity of action. This was seen as regarded the action of the present Government as regarded the Normal school, and the proposal to give East Christchurch the site near the Museum, which was most unsuitable for it, being too close to the Lincoln road school.

Dr TURNBULL said it was very good for the class holding property to sav “ don’t set class against class,’’ but he (Dr Turnbull) reiterated what he had before said, that property should be ashamed to stand longer idly by refusing to tax itself for the increase of the material prosperity of the province. Let them look at the whole burden of the improvement of the colony, railways, &c, now resting on the people, and they were entitled to claim for themselves a free education. Instead of taxing the people more, he besought the House not to take a retrograde step and impose a burden, let it be only £3 a year, which would be felt most keenly by the people of the province. He now came to the Bill before them, the two principal points in which were control and finance, and it was necessary that they should have fixity of control, but what did they find? Why that they proposed to take away the control from an independent Board, and place it in the hands of a nominated Secretary to a shifting Executive; under the control at one time of a friend to the system, and at another under the control of an enemy to the system of secular education, such as the hon the Provincial Secretary. The Board of Education was, he pointed out, simply judicial and simply administrative, which was just what it should be. If any injustice were done there was the Council to appeal to, or the law. He would strongly urge the House to negative the principle of the Bill which placed the control of Education in the hands of a shifting Executive—a principle which was a retrograde step on the part of the Council which he trusted they would not take. It was his opinion that the Ordinance required no alteration except in the matter of the imposition of a property tax. The principle he held was that population should pay for the education of their children, but not out of direct revenue, but out of the capitation grant, which should be paid over to this province direct for the purposes of education. [Hear, hear.] Then there was the house tax; he contended that this was an unjust tax, because they were paying for buildings which were to last for years. The bnilding of these schools should be paid for out of loans, and they ought to face the difficulty and ask for loans sufficient to erect substantial schools all over the province, whereby all would contribute their fair share to the cost. By this means they would have an educated people, but by taxing them and grinding down as they proposed to do now, they would demoralise them. Mr Dixon was astonished to hear what had fallen from the hon Provincial Solicitor, because he had, after the remarks as to an economical Government, been actually pleading for the past extravagancies of the Boaid of Education. Beyond this also, he was a dry nurse for the whole of Christchurch, asking for infant schools for children under the school ages. For sessions past, the House had been kept in the dark as to the amounts for education, and yet it was now proposed to carry on the same system. The fact was, it had pampered the people to such a degree that the municipalities now came to the House to ask them to pay for asphalting the streets of Christchurch, to provide light, &c, and he now could only hope that these municipalities who had got their school# built out of the laud revenue,

would contribute towards the erection of substantial schools for the outlying districts. [Hear, hear.] He thought that the Board of Education had brought this storm upon themselves, and all hecould say wasthat he hoped a property tax would be instituted, so that all would contribute alike to the cost of the system of education. What he contended was that the people using the system should contribute towards the education of their children. When once the system was established, it would not be so expensive after all—[hear, hear] —and the people would be able with a very small expenditure to keep it on foot. What he would like to see would be a system of compulsory education ; that was, that the State, which found so large a sum for the provision of education, should be enabled to compel the children to come in and be educated. While the hon the Provincial Solicitor was quoting the figures ms to the municipalities, he desired to point out that Lyttelton had not contributed out of their pockets for their one-sixth. What had they done? Why the Lyttelton people had taken the piece of public property and handed it over, and he must say that when the Board of Education had done this, they had not done what was right. Mr Maskell said that the hon member who had just sat down had said he would like to see a general property rate, but it seemed to him that they could not get over the fact that the man who paid the highest property rate was the one who least used the primary schools of the province. [Hear, hear ] This was why he opposed it, speaking for himself only. With regard to the question of extravagance, the Government had not charged the Board with extravagance, but they said this, that a system of an irresponsible Board was productive of extravagance. [Hear, hear ] Under this systhera they could not get a proper control, and they wished this more particularly to be the case. As regarded the fixity of finance spoken of by the hon member for Christchurch (Dr Turnbull) he would point out that the Board of Education were the first to introduce a change by bringing in a property tax. He now came to the subject which was the reason principally why he had risen. He must say that for many years he had been a member of that House, and he must say that he never had heard such a charge made against a member of the House and of the Government, as that made by the hon member for Heathcote. [Hear, hear.] Ho bad said that because he (Mr Maskell) had expressed certain opinions on the system of secular education, he was unfit to control education, Now he (Mr Maskell) said that this was not a charge which ought to have been uttered against any member of that House. [Hear, hear, and cheers.] The hon member for Heathcote had made this charge. [Mr Montgomery —“ I beg the hon member’s pardon; that is not what I said.”] Well, he (Mr Maskell) did not know what other construction the hon member’s words would bear. [Hear, hear.] He as Provincial Secretary had only one voice, and would the hon member for Heathcote say for one moment that he had influenced the Government in bringing in the Bill now before the House. If he were the opponent the hon gentleman wished to make out, he should scarcely have brought down a Bill which proposed to give the people through their Government full control over the system. If he wanted to ruin the system of education he should scarcely have done this; he should certainly have introduced a system which would have disgusted the people with it. He might have said that the hon member for Heathcote, when in the Government, brought his position as the chairman of the Board of Education to bear upon the Government, but he would not do so. If the hon member for Heathcote felt what he had said, that he (Mr Maskell) was unfit to control the department of education, why did he not come down and say that the House had no confidence in the Government, because the Provincial Secretary, who he might remind the hon member still controlled the education department, except the mere engineering or erection of buildings, was not a fit person. [Cheers.] That was the fair course to pursue, but instead, the hon member for Heathcote had struck him below the belt, if he might say so. [Cheers,] However, he felt snre the House would not for one moment believe that this charge was substantiated —[Cheers] —and all he would say was that himself and his colleagues were simply actuated with a desire to do good to the province, equally as much as the hon member and his colleagues. [Loud cheers.] Mr Webb looked upon it that the proposition of the Bill for a secretary of education simply meant the appointment of an executive officer under the Provincial Secretary. He should like to have seen the committees swept away, because everj month convinced him that the sooner they were got rid of the better. At present it was a fallacy, or rather a popular error, that the people controlled these matters, because the fact was that the committees could do nothing without reference to the Board of Education. As regarded the property rate, he at the Board of Education objected to this, because he held that the burden of supporting the system should rest on those who took advantage of it. [Hear, hear,] The increase of the fee to 10s was not more than the people could bear, and he thought the rate might be collected by instalments not all at once. But after all it was only £3 a year for the whole family, let them be as many as might be, and he did not think that could be called heavy. He should have liked to have seen a compulsory clause in the Bill, as he did not think the fees were sufficient to make it compulsory. He was not of opinion that they were overdoing the matter of education, because the result would be to make the rising generation an educated people, which was seen in America. Then, again, why should education be the sole subject upon which a property rate should be levied; why not for police or for charitable aid? [Hear, hear,] As he was not able to propose amendments in committee, he was glad to find that some hon members were prepared to do so, and he also was glad to notice that the Government had altered their ideas as to the building rate. His idea was that the cost of the school buildings should come out of another fund altogether, and also that the buildings should be of a more substantial character. [Hear, hear.] He trusted that the Government, if they erected schools, would see that they were built of more lasting material. Mr R. Turnbull moved that the debate be adjourned. Dr Rayner seconded the motion, which was agreed to on the voices. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. This order of the day was made an order of the day for next sitting day. Notices of motion having been given, the House adjourned till 6 p.m. this day,