PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Globe, Volume IV, Issue 305, 4 June 1875, Page 2

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Thursday, June 3. The Speaker.took the chair at 3 p.m. petitions.

Mr HARPER presented a petition, signed by 557 persons, praying for the construction of a branch railway to the White .Cliffs quarries. The petition was read and received. Mr Andrews presented a petition from the Mayor and City Council of Christchurch praying the Council to take the question of granting an endowment to the city into their serious consideration. The petition waß read and received. REPORTS OF COMMITTEE. Mr Bluett brought up the report of the committee on the Doyleston Library petition, recommending that no further grant should be made until the site had been conveyed to his Honor the Superintendent and the library brought under the Public Libraries' Act. Sir C. Wilson brought up the report of the committee appointed to consider the petition of Charles Beed and thirty-nine othere. AMENDED ROAD ORDINANCE. Dr Rayner asked if it is the intention of the Government to bring in an Amended Road Ordinance during the present session. The Provincial Secretary said the Government did not intend to bring in an Amended Road Ordinance this session. resignation of the provincial solicitor. Sir Cracroft Wilson said he desired to inform the House that Mr Wynn Williams had resigned his appointment as Provincial Solicitor and his seat in the Executive, and that his Honor the Superintendent had ac cepted such resignation. ROAD DISTRICTS.' Mr Walker moved—" I hat in the opinion of this Council—-(1) That the principle has been establish'd by the Act cre'ating the Timaru aud Gladstone Board of Works, that 25 per cent of the laud should be paid to each Road Board district, (2) That there-

fore if is desirable there be paid over to each road district in the future 25 per cent of the proceeds of lands sold in each road district a 3 it accrues." He would desire to point out that it was, in his opinion, a disgraceful fact in the history of the province that, finding their wants not attended to, a portion of the province had rebelled and gone to Wellington for the purpose of obtaining justice. The principle contained in the first part of the repolution was, he took it, incontrovertible ; and hon members could not fail to see the justice of each district being paid 25 per cent of the proceeds of lands sold in them as they accrue. He hoped the Government would see their way clear to assent to his resolution. There was, he thought, no practical difficulty in the carrying out of his resolution, and he hoped the House would pass it. The Provincial Secretary said that so far as the principle of the resolution was concerned there could be no objection to it. The principle had been assented to over and over again—[hear, hear)—but there was, he desired to point out, very great difficulty in laying down a hard-and-fast line. The first resolution was not quite correct, and with regard to the second, it would be very difficult to carry it out, because there were districts where no lands were sold. The fact was that the circumstances of the districts varied very considerably, and these must be considered by the Council at the time of discussing the matter. These circumstances, he thought, were opposed to the laying down of any fixed rule, and consequently the resolution could not be carried out if it weie passed. .He did not object to the principle, but he merely wished to point out to the Council that it was impracticable. It was inespedieat to lay down any rule, because the amount to be given to each district must depend upon circumstances, and on the amount of revenue to be allocated. The hon member for Ashburton represented a district in which there was land yet to be sold, while be (Mr Maskell) represented 6ne in which there was none for sale, and it would be unfair to take away the grant from the latter to give to 'the former. He would suggest that the hon member should withdraw his motion. Mr Bluett could not agree with the resolution as it stood. . If the hon member would make it retrospective, he would support it. Mr W. B. Tosswill agreed with the principle embodied in the resolution, but he thought it hardly went far enough. # Mr Parker would have no objection to the resolution being made retrospective, but he did not see where the money was to come from. He thought it was fair that those districts which had contributed to the revenue should receive back 25 per cent of their land sales.

Mr GRAY supported the motion. 'Mr R. Turnbull was sorry to see that the Government were opposed to this motion, Which was simply a measure of justice. < Mr Potts supported the motion, as he believed that it would lead to local selfgovernment. [Hear, hear.J Mr Brown expressed a hope that the hon member would withdraw his motion, as he felt sure that the result df it would be found to be that it was impossible to carry it out. Bir Cracroft Wilson opposed the resolution, because if such a resolution were carried by the Council the Act of the Assembly passed in 1871 would prevent the resolution being carried into effect. Mr Jebson would move as an amendment that in the second part of the resolution the words " district in the future" be struck out, and the words « Board at once" inserted in lieu thereof:

The amendment was negatived on the voices.

Mr William White opposed the motion, Mr Montgomery said if they laid down a hard and fast rule that the amount should be handed over to each roed district, they might find that they were giving money to a district in which no roads were to be made. He thought that the first resolution was not correct. What had been established was that 25 per cent should be given to the Timaru and Gladstone Board of Works to carry out works in its district, but not to give to Road Boards. He (Mr Montgomery) would only be too glad to have voted for the resolution if he could see his way clear to da so, but the resolution attempted to commit them to a theoretical issue, and he felt that do practical result wonld come out of it. Jf they had a select committee on the matter to report upon the effect it would have upon the various Road Boards, hon gentlemen would see that it was impossible to carry it out. Mr Jollie said that he thought the districts which had not yet received their 25 per cent had a fair claim to receive it now. Mr WALKER having replied, The motion was put and negatived on the voices. Mr Parker demanded a division, which took place as follows: — Ayes ••• 10 Noes 20 Majority against resolution ... 10 The following is the division list ; Ayes 10—Messrs Dixon, Gray, Hay, Parker, Pilliett, Potts, Rayner, Teschemaker, Turnbull, R., and Walker. Noes 20—Messrs Andrews, Bluett, Buchanan, Fisher, Harper, Higgins, Jebson, Jollie, Joynt, Maskell, Brown, Montgomery, Peacock, Tosswill, J. N., Tosswill, W. 8., Turnbull, J. 8., Webb, Westenra, White, W., and Wilson, J.O. THE SURVEYS. Mr Jebson said that he would withdraw the resolution standing in his name, viz. : " That in the opinion of this Council the Government should appoint a commission during the recess, to inquire into the matters referred to in the report of the chief surveyor, relating to the surveys and Crown grants already issued and that may be issued before the commission bring up their report;" and gave notice 6f an amended resolution for next day. Ll AND NO 2 RIVERS. Mr J. N. Tosswill moved that the House go into committee to consider the following resolution :—" That his Honor the Superintendent be respectfully requested to place upon the supplementary estimates a sum not exceeding £7OO, as a grant in aid for the purpose of removing certain clay bars and other cbstructions in the Ll and No 2 rivers." The Secretary for Public Works said if the hon mover would alter the sum required to £4OO the Government would not oppose the resolution. 'he motion for gojng into committee was agreed to. In oommitt* e, . Mr Tosswill moved the resolution, amending it as for Public Works,

The motion was agreed to, reported to the House, and adopted, STORB SHED AT SOUTHBROOK. Mr BROWN moved that the House go into committee to consider the following resolution—-" That his Honor the Superintendent be respectfully requested to place on the supplementary estimates a sum not exceeding £4OO, to defray the cost of the erection of a store shed at Southbrook, on the Great Northern Railway. The Secretary for Public Works said that the Government opposed this vote. If the accommodation were provided the General Government should be the one to do it. [Hear, hear.J Besides, he felt that the cost would be very far in excess of the sum received for carriage of grain. The motion was negatived on the voices. MANDBVILLE AND RANGUORA DRAINAGE WORKS. The following motion, standing in the name of Mr Isaac Wilson, lapsed—" That his Honor the Superintendent be respectfully requested to place on the supplementary estimates a sum not exceeding £I2OO for the completion of drainage works in the Mandeville and Rangiora district." RECLAMATION OF AKAROA HARBOR. Mr Pilliet moved —"That in view of the advantages to result from reclaiming that portion of the town of Akaroa, covered by the waters of Akaroa harbor, lying between Lavaud and Jollie streets, it is desirable that estimates be prepared by the Government, showing probable cost and returns of such reclamation, for the purpose of placing in the market as speedily as possible land so reclaimed." The town of Akaroa, as hon members would remember, was divided into two parts by the shallow portion of the harbor which he proposed to reclaim. He believed that the work would be one of very great value, as the assessed value of the land to be reclaimed was £3OOO per acre. The work of reclamation was one greatly desired by the people of Akaroa, and the local Road Board would only be too glad to have the power to go on with the work. He hoped to see the Government take practical steps towards carrying out the work. Mr Westenra seconded tr e motion. He might say that he knew if the laud spoken of was reclaimed, very large prices could be obtained for it. The work would be exceedingly easy, because just above it there was a large clay hill which might be ulilised for the purpose of reclamation. He felt sure if the Government obtained these estimates, that next session they would proceed with the work. _ The Secretary for Public Works said that the Government had no objectien to the motion. Of course, all they would do was to employ their own staff to make estimates. He would suggest that the hon member should withdraw the last clause of his resolution, and in view of this he (Mr Peacock) would move as an amendment that the words " for the purpose of placing in the market as speedily as possible land so reclaimed" be struck out. He might say that the Government did not think the cost of procuring estimates would be very large. Mr Pilliet. intimated that he would accept the amendment. Mr Buchanan heartily supported the resolution, as he thought it was a step in the right direction. [Hear, hear.J The amendment was then put and agreed to on the voices. The original resolution was then put and agreed to as amended. endowment for christchurch. DrTuRNBULL moved, "That his Honor the Superintendent be respectfully requested to place on the supplementary estimates the sum of £50,000 for the purchase of land as an endowment for the city of Christchurch." He did not intend to detain the Council long in stating the special claims for endowment possessed by the city of Christchurch. He would like to ask to whom the land belonged, whether in Road Boards, municipalities, or elsewhere? He said to the people; and therefore he contended the people had a right to be endowed from their own property. The pastur ge rents also belonged to the people, both in town and country, and the people had the power to deal with the waste lands of the Crown if they so felt disposed. As to the quantity of land belonging to the people, he might say that he believed that there were nine millions of acres. Of this, five million acres were under lease, and the rent belonged to the people. There seemed to be about threequarters of a million of acres of good agricultural land, and taking it that they had five millions of land, the property of the people, to deal with, he, as representing a portion of the landlords of this estate, came to the Council and asked them to endow Christchurch. Of the number of the total inhabitants in Canterbury one-third might be put down as re■iding in towns ; therefore he thought that the Council should look at the way in which the municipalities had been treated. What had they received ? Really nothing. Not only this, but the land which belonged to them was being absorbed in the improvement of other districts. Hon members were quite aware of the claims of Christchurch, and if it were not for some power which prevented members of that House from doing justice, the municipalities would have received consideration at the hands of the House. He would urge upon the Council to adopt the resolution by a large majority, so as to show that the Council was at last prepared to do justice; Mr Webb seconded the motion.

The Provincial Secretary said this was a question of very great importance, and one which the Government looked upon as such. The statement of the hon member that the land belonged to the people could not of course be controverted, but those who held the land, it must be recollected, were the people of the whole province. But it seemed to him that the hon member went on the assumption that the proportion of the residents of Christchurch to the province as a whole would always remain as it was now, but the fact was that as the province increased the proportion of the towns to the general population of the province would decrease every year, not that Christchurch and the other towns would not increase, but not at such a rate as the general province. fHaar. hear.] Therefore it was that he thought the division by the hon member was incorrect. The hon gentleman who had moved the resolution had said that the towns had received nothing from the Government, but he (Mr Maskell) would desire to point out that every permanent work which was done by the province in any district of the province, acted as a means of indirect benefit to the centres of population, ["Hear, hear.J When the hon member asked them to

vot9 the sum of £50,000 to the city of Christchurch, he must recollect that at least the same amount must be allocated to the other municipalities, and that meant the withdrawal from the province of 50,0C0 acres, which, if purchased by private individuals, would produce £IOO,OOO. This, of course, was a most important matter, and one deserving the gravest consideration of the Government. While not going as far as the hon member, the Government recognised that, looking to the great increase of population in the centres, they were prepared to see that aid should be given, more particularly as regarded the sanitary condition of the centres. The Government did not recognise any claims, but they said that shortly the province would have to consider the advisability of giving aid to the municipalities, especially with regard to their sanitary condition. Looking at it in this light, though not prepared to support the resolution as at present framed, nor able to lay down at so late a period of the session any definite scheme on a question of so much difficulty, they recognised the importance of the principle being settled without committing themselves too much to any details during the present session. He would, therefore, ask the hon member for Ohristchurch to accept the amendment which he was about to propose.

At this stage the House adjourned for an hour.

On the House resuming, Mr Maskell said that he wished to explain a matter on which he had spoken. The hon member for Christchurch had said that the land of the province belonged to the people, and he (Mr Maskell) said that in theory he agreed with it. What he meant was, that the land belonged to the people in this sense only—it was public land, and the revenues derived from it ought to be used for public purposes only. With regard to the resolution, there was an important question to be considered —to what purpose was the endowment to be applied. In Christchurch, no doubt, the most important was the improvement of the sanitary condition of the city, and he felt certain that no scheme for the sanitary improvement of the city would be acceptable to the Provincial Council without the suburbs were included in it. For these reasons he believed the present motion was premature, and therefore he would move an amendment which would give time for consideration, and which would recognise the necessity of something being done to improve the sanitary condition of the city of Christchurch. The Government would not object to going into committee ; but when the House was in committee, he would move the following as an amendment —" That his Honor the Superintendent be respectfully requested to ascertain during the recess the best means—whether by procuring the passing of an Act by the General Assembly, or by recommending to this Council at its next session to vote a sum of money—of providing for the necessities of the municipalities of the province." The Speaker said he doubted whether the amendment could be moved.

Mr R. Turnbull opposed the resolution. Mr J. B. Brown pointed out that the hon mover did not indicate how the money was to be employed. If it was to be used for the improvement of roads and the erection of bridges, he should oppose, but he was not prepared to oppose it wholly if it were to be applied for sanitary purposes. He would, therefore, move an amendment, which would make the resolution apply not only to Christchurch but to the whole province, and, therefore, he would move to strike out the words " City of Christchurch," and to substitute the words " the Central Board of Health of the province." If that were done the Central Board of Health would at once act upon the local Boards, and thus the health not only of the city of Christchurch would be improved, but also the health of the whole province. The Speaker ruled that the amendment could not now be put. Mr J. E. Brown said he would vote for going into committee, and would move this amendment in committee.

Mr Potts would vote for going into committee, being of opinion that not only should Ohristchurch be endowed, but other municipalities in the province. Mr H. P. Gray supported the going into committee. He considered that Christchurch had large claims to the consideration of the Council. Christchurch, in common with other portions of the province, was entitled to a share in the land revenue, and moreover he believed that Ohristchurch did not receive so much of the revenue derived from the railways as the country districts, and the people of Ohristchurch had to contribute a large proportion of the interest on the cost of construction. The people of Christchurch being about 12,000 contributed about £9OOO. towards the interest on the cost of construction of the railways, or at the rate of 15s per head. He thought that this motion should be carried at once, because they did not know that the Council would be in existence when the time for holding another session of the Council arrived. Whilst agreeing that it was desirable the suburbs should be included in the sanitary scheme he believed that the sum asked for would not be sufficient to include the suburbs. He thought that Christchurch was entitled to the sum asked for, and therefore should vote for going into committee.

Mr Fisher hoped that the House would go into committee, and that the resolution would then be so amended as to include the suburbs with the city of Christchurch. Mr Jebson said that the House threw out a resolution which was considered to be equitable, and which had for its object the giving of 25 per cent from the land fund to the Road Boards of the districts in which it was raised. He contended that the resolution did not go far enough, inasmuch as it wad only fractional in its operation. If the resolution were carried, in order to carry out the principle, they must endow Lyttelton, Timaru, Kaiapoi, and the Road Boards. He should oppose the resolution, because if they were to parcel out the public estate in this manner they might in future be called to account because the land of the province was as much the property of the people of the future as of the people in existence now. If they endowed one portion of the people he contended that the whole must be endowed. He trusted that the House would not go into committee, but that the Government would give a liberal sum to Christchurch on the same basis as grants were given to the Road Boards, and this could be done from time to time.

Mr W. B. Tosswill said that when a grant in aid of municipalities was asked for, hon members objected to it, and stated that they were prepared to vote for an endowment. Now an endowment was proposed, an objection was raised, and another ex-

pedient suggested. As a matter of expediency he should vote for the resolution, because the people of the province could not afford to allow Christchurch to remain in an unhealthy state. As a m .It r of expediency they could not afford to silnvii this state of things to remain, and as a matter of humanity they ought not to allow jt. Hon G. Buckley said that the proper way to look at the question was how it would affect the revenues of the province. The Government looked at it in this light, and considered that such an endowment would cripple the revenues of the province. He thought that the best course to pursue was that indicated in the amendment proposed by his hon colleague the Provincial Secretary. As, however, that could not be moved, the Government felt themselves compelled to vote against going into committee ; but even in the absence of any resolution on the subject, the Government could take such action as was indicated in the contemplated amendment of his hon colleague. Mr Dixon, although opposed to endowments, would like to see a vote for sanitary purposes under proper control, as an emergency might arise when it might be required. Mr Parker would oppose going into com-, mittee, but support a grant of money in aid of the city of Christchurch. Mr Webb said he did not agree withthehon member for Rangiora in referring this matter to the Central Board of Health. He thought that the best method of dealing with this matter was to move the previous question, which would not preclude the matter from being brought forward in another shape this session. He begged to move the previous question. The Speaker then put the question—- " That the question be now put," and declared the noes to have it. Dr Turnbull called for a division, which took place as follows : Ayes 7 Noes 23 Ayes Messrs Andrews, Brown, Gray, Tosswill, W. 8,, Turnbull, J. S., White, W., and Wilson, I. Noes—Messrs Bluett, Buchanan, Buckley, Dixon, Fisher, Harper, Hay, Higgins, Jebson, Jollie, Maskell, Montgomery, Parker, Peacock, Pilliett, Rayner, Teschmaker, Tosswill, J. W.,Turnbull, R., Walker, Webb, Westenra, Wilson, J. C. RAILWAY tolls and management ORDINANCB, 1875. _ The House went into committee on this Bill, and the schedules having been agreed to, the Chairman reported the Bill. The report was agreed to, and the Bill ordered be read a third time to-morrow. SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES. The Provincial Secretary laid on the table the supplementary estimates. POSTPONEMENT. The further consideration in committee of the following Bills was postponed until Tuesday next: —Sueep Amendment Ordinance, 1875, No 2, and the Education Ordinance, 1875. WIDTH OF TIRES ORDINANCE, 1876. This Bill passed through committee, was reported, and ordered to be read a third time to-morrow. EDUCATIONAL RESERVES LEASING ORDINANCE, 1875. This Bill was read a third time and passed. Notices of motion having been given, the Council adjourned until noon this day. Friday, June 4. The Speaker took the chair at noon. pigeon bay. Mr Pilliett asked the Secretary for Public Works what the Government intend doing with reference to Hay's Breastwork at Pigeon Bay, and the road to Port Levy. The Secretary for Public Works said the Road Board had not applied to the Government since they came into office, and they had made no provision for the same. It was in the province of the Road Board to attend to the mater. HOLMES AND CO'S CLAIM. Mr Bluett asked the Provincial Secretary whether the Government have received any further communication from Messrs Holmes and Co, respecting their claims, and if so, whether the Government have any objection to lay that communication on the table. The Provincial Secretary said that the Government had received a communication, but did not think it well to produce it. THE DIVISION BELL. Mr Potts drew attention to the faint manner in which the division bell was rung last evening. It was owing to his not hearing the bell last eveningthat he was prevented from recording his vote on behalf of the endowment of the City of Christchurch. THE PROVINCIAL SOLICITOR. Mr Wynn Williams—Sir: Before # the business of the House is proceeded with I think it is due to the House that I should make an explanation with regard to the statement mede to it last night qy the hon member at the head of the Executive. (Hear, hear.] I will not detain the House ingoing at any length into thereasonswhichiuducedme to resign my office as Provincial Solicitor, and as a member of the Executive as it would take some time to do sc. I shall do so more particularly on Tuesday next, when moving the resolution of which I have given notice this day. in connection with the Education question. I may mention that, so far as the gentlemen forming the present Government are concerned, I have agreed with them on everything except on the question of education. I most distinctly state that my opinion is, that education has fallen into the wrong hands—(Hear, hear, from Mr Montgomery)—and I feel honestly bound to say so if I think so. This opinion has not come upon me suddenly, because ever since I have been in office, the feeling has been growing in my mind that the subject has Fallen into the -wrong hands, and it has so worried me that I have been unable to attend here for two or three days in consequence of illness brought on from that worry, Under the circumstances I felt that I could not consent to hold office in the Government any longer. From the very first time that the question arose as to the providing of sufficient funds for the necessary , school buildings, I was alarmed, because the gentleman who holds the office of Provincial Secretary, and whose duty it was to inquire into the state of the finances of the province, came down suddenly on me w Ith the statement that the financial condition of the province was such that it would be impossible to find the amount required for education purposes by the Board of Education, unless the contribution for school building too from the people was raised from one-sixth as at present to one-half. The hon members says "No " in a whisper; he may say "No" if he likes, but I say that it was the case. A great deal of discussion took place between

us as to the Bill to be introduced; in fact I may say that this has been matter for contention between niyseli and L'm ever since I have been in the Government, arid a grea.t detil of d'scussion, I Mo bound to tell him that I could not agree to the proposed alteration, but that I would take a ce.tain course if it were not changed, and it was charged, for the Government agreed to change it to one-sixth, and I drew the clause of which I gave notice, to the effect that, for the present financial year, the proportion to be contributed by the people of the districts would be onesixth as now. This being settled, then the question arises whether the clause itself should be altered, and ono-half struck out and one-sixth inserted in its place. The hon member, the Provincial Sa'ireiary, persisted in saying that the words " one-half" must remain in the Bill ; be b he would give no reason whatever for doing so, and the hon member cannot deny that on Tuesday last, the day on which the question came on, I reminded him several times that the question must be decided. I gave ray reason, which was that other members of the Government having conceded that the amount of contribution should be one-sixth, instead of onehalf, there was no reason whatever why it should not be so stated in the Bill. [Hear, hear.J I did not consider the question one of finality as it stood 1 , and therefore—

The Speaker—l think it advisable that the hon member should not now go into argument upon the question, but confine himself to explanation only. [Hear, hear.] Sir Cracboft Wilson—The hon member has made statements which ought not to have been made.

Mr Wynn Williams—l challenge the hon member to deny the truth of what I have said. The hon member cannot deny what took place before the whole committee on Tuesday last, and I shall be quite prepared to argue it out when the motion of which I have given notice comes before the House. When the question came on in committee on Tuesday last, the three hon members sitting next to me, instead of remaining there to carryout theu-viewsonthesubjectleft me, their colleague, to continue to carry out this Bill as best I could. When it was proposed that the contribution should not be altered I assented to it, but the hon member at the head of the Executive got up and said that he entirely differed from his colleague, and that he would not agree to the proposed alteration. If the hon members of the Government who left the House had good reasons for opposing the alteration after they had conceded the point why did v?iy not come into the Hotis*, and support their reasons for so doing v v their presence. That was not a proper we* vo treat me after tftey had decided, on the day, to cottc -o> a point I contended for, A few m>- ».■»•■ be"f> the Houie went "in ' ;ommittei- . --v ~ ■•■« the hon member v:.<s Province: ■*>.-- <

that this question ■> -oaaing on ii . ic*-' minutes, and his a «•* was, " SHux. .;o thi words." [•' Hear, i - r,'' from Mr Maskell.] I contend that I x. tM perfect:/ justified in declining to be treated in such ; >a.<-> sr uo that either by the President cf *iie Exkv.tive or any. other members of <■' Govetu* ment. My reasons for resigning are these, and I have come to . j.b conclusion that we have made a kl. >. ke in doing away with the Board oil Education, and leaving those hon members on the Government benches to have charge of education in this province. ["Hear, hear," from Mr Montgomery.] That is my firm convinction, and I shall be prepared to show on Tuesday next that I am perfectly justified in coming to the conclusion.

The Provincial Secretary—Sir,—l think that after what has been said by the hon member who has just spoken, it is necessary that I should make some remarks with regard to the observations he has thought proper to make. The Speaker—l think that the hon member ought not to enter into argument on the question at this time The Provincial Secretary—l am not going to argue any question now, but shall confine myself to the remarks that have been made by the hon member. The hon member says that at the time the estimates were under consideration I startled him by saying that it was impossible to find money sufficient for school buildings. Neither I, nor any other member of the Government, ever said any such thing—never 1 What I stated was that the finances were not in so good a position as they had been, and that in future we should have to retrench, and that it was our intention to reduce the expenditure on school buildings, which we considered extravagant, but we never said anything about the impossibility of providing the money. The reason why the words " one-half" were put in the Bill was the same as that stated in the financial statement, and the hon member did not object to it at the time. Mr Wynn Williams—Most decidedly I did.

The Provincial Secretary—l repeat that the hon member did not object to it at the time. If he did he never said so. The hon member says that he discussed this matter with the Government. Mr Wynn Williams—With you.

The Provincial Secretary—l have always been at one with every other member of the Government in this matter, and I believe they are entirely unanimous that this one half ought to remain the Bill, and they have never changed that opinion, and when the hon member, who knew from his position as chairman of the East Cbristchurch school committee, that the circumstances connected with that district showed to the Government that it was going too far to make districts pay one-half this year, I was the first member of this Government to agree with the hon member, and I think it was without any difficulty at all that the Government allowed that for the present year one-half should not be insisted on. The Government never had any idea whatever until the result of the amendment on last Tuesday night that the hon member was going to throw them over in the manner he did. He says we ought to have been in our places, but in answer to that I would say that we thought his honor was so involved that he would honorably carry the Bill through the House. If they had the slightest idea that the hon member would betray them in tke manner they had been betrayed, we would have been here and baid that we thoroughly differed from the hon member. Not one member of the Government but could have been with the President of the Executive in the action which he look under the circumstances. W* have not objection to the r: member holding whatever view he pier a the subject or education. We find no alt with him, but for this, that for six weeis he has remained in the Government knowing what our

opinions were, and that the Government intended to stick to this half, aud when the the three members of the Government were out of the House, he threw the Government over.

Mr Wynn Williams—l object to that entire) v.

The Provincial Secretary—We did not like to be struck from behind, especially by a mail whom we considered to be one of our side. Ido not think that I need say any more about it now. The hon member has given notice of motion, which I cannot understand until I see it in print. All matters of this kind can be fairly discussed on Tuesday, but I wish the House to understand this, that however the 'hon member may put his case, the case of the Government is that they gave the hon member distinctly to understand that they could not allow him to remain in the Government after his action on Tuesday night. Mr Wynn Williams—l beg most distinctly to deny that. No such statement was ever made to me by any member on the Government benches; I never had any such communication either from the hon member or any other member of the Government. On Tuesday night I told the hon member that if Mr Tosswill moved his amendment, I should agree to it. I deny that I ever heard a single syllable to the effect that they could not allow ma to remain in the Government in consequence of what I had done. The hon member merely told me that Sir Cracroft Wilson wished to see me in his own room.

Sir Cracroft Wilson.—As my conduct has been referred to, allow me to say one or two words. I had no notion whatever that the hon member (Mr Williams) was going to do anything of the sort, and I was never more astonished in my life than when he turned round and accepted the amendment of the hon member for Lincoln. This has been a cardinal question with us, and the hon member knows this to be case, and in order to show that he did know it, I will quote from his speech on the subject:—" It is evident that eventually the people must pay for carrying on the system of education, and for all repairs required." I was thunderstruck. I did not call for a division. I trust the House will agree with me that I was right in not creating a fiasco in the House.

The "Speaker—lf the hon member goes into argument the hon member must have the right of reply. Sir Cracroft Wilson—l bow to your decision, but—[The remainder of what Sir Cracroft said was inaudible in the gallery.] Mr Montgomery—l should like permission to put a question to the Government. Under the Executive Council Ordinance of 1861 it is necessary that there should be a Provincial Solicitor to carry on the business of fcbis House. I therefore ask the head of the Government if a Provincial Solicitor has been appointed, in accordance with the Executive Council Ordinance of 1864. Sir Cracroft Wilson—The Provincial Solicitor will be appointed before the hon member thinks he will.

The matter then dropped. [Left sitting.]