THE ABOLITION BILL.

Globe, Volume IV, Issue 359, 6 August 1875, Page 2

THE ABOLITION BILL.

PUBLIC MEETING IN CHRISTCHURCH. A public meeting was held last evening in the Oddfellows’ Hall, to consider the Abolition Bill in compliance with the following requisition :— ‘ ‘To his Worship the Mayor of Christchurch We, the undersigned Electors and others of the Province of Canterbury, respectfully request that you will call a public meeting of Electors generally, to be held in Christchurch, at an early date, with a view of eliciting an opinion as to the policy of the General Government in proposing to Abolish Provincial Institutions, and more especially with regard to the policy of forcing on the Abolition Bill without affording the people of the colony an opportunity of exercising their right to vote upon so important an organic change in the constitution of the colony. Signed—W. Wilson, Wynn Williams, And forty-two other gentlemen,” There was a very large attendance, the Hall being filled to overflowing, while the platform was also crowded. His Worship the Mayor occupied the chair, and opened the business of the evening by reading the requisition convening the meeting, and his reply thereto. He hoped the meeting would show that courtesy to every speaker which was characteristic of Englishmen, and though himself a strong abolitionist, he hoped the gentlemen speaking on the Provincial side of the question would have fair play. When the matter had been fairly discussed, those present could then say by their votes how they felt. As there were a number of gentlemen to speak, he would ask those taking part in the meeting to attempt to limit themselves to twenty minutes or half an hour—[cheers] —or they would be there all night, | Cheers.] He would now call on Mr Wynn Williams to move the first resolution, Mr Wynn Williams said that the last remark of his Worship was a poser, as it would be necessary for them to cut short somewhat their remarks. [Applause.] Before entering upon the question before the meeting, he desired to say a word or two regarding his occupying so prominent a position as the mover of the first resolution. As he had been so often before them during the past twelve years on many questions of public interest, he thought that the present occasion might be considered a sufficient justification for his taking an active part in a meeting such as the present. For many years past an opinion had been growing up that the colony was being over-governed. [Applause.] The wants of the people in the early days, politically speaking, were few, and beyond this, were essentially local. In order to meet rhese wants the system known under the term provincialism was devised by Sir George Grey and others, and he did not think there could be any doubt that for some years this form was admirably adapted to the requirements of the colony. By imperceptible degrees, however, the constitution granted to the whole colony had, so to speak, absorbed the usefulness of the provincial system. If the result had ended there, small ground for complaint would have existed. Unfortunately for the colony, however, the powers acquired by provincial institutions became so great that in many instances their actions had caused serious detriment to the action of the Legislature of the colony. The conflicting laws now in force in many of the provinces, many of which had been held to be ultra vires, or beyond their powers, and the borrowing powers of the provinces, had also caused endless, difficulties. On the withdrawal of these powers, little remained but to pass Appropriation Acts for such revenues as they had, helped out by such resources as Superintendents and a log-rolling party could extract from a yielding Ministry. The powers of legislation, however, remained ; and no doubt the various laws passed by the separate legislative bodies had been a source of constant interference with the due administration of the affairs of the colony. Nothing to his mind could be more absurd than for a country to be subject to nine separate and distinct sets of laws, all more or less trenching on the general laws passed by the Legislature of the colony. The Colonial Ministry now in office had declared their policy with regard to the all - important question, and it remained to be seen whether their proposals were wise and just, and whether they met with the support of the people, which he thought they did, so far as they could judge without a general election. [Cheers.] It seemed to him that, apart from the most rabid of provincialists, no one could say, after reading the Bills of the Government, that they would not be of immense advantage to the country at large. [Loud cheers ] Before proceeding further, it would perhaps be as well if he were to read to them the resolution he intended to propose, which was as follows:—“That this meeting cordially approves of the proposals contained in the Government Bills for the abolition of he provinces, and for the constitution of districts throughout the colony having the control of local revenues, and believes that if carried into effect they will be conducive of great and lasting benefit to the country.” [Loud cheers.] It was, of course, open to any one to move another resolution or amendment on this proposition. He would now give, them a few figures as regarded their loans, because it seemed to him that this was a point which had a strong bearing alike upon the future welfare of the

colony and the question of abolition of the provinces. The total amount, as stated by Sir D. M'Lean, borrowed by the General Government and the provinces in 1870 was £7,556,216, and a further sum of £5,000,000 was algo authorised. Up to 1874 the total amount borrowed was £13,411,736, and since that time the sums authorised to be raised were £5,327,000 ; defence, £192,000 ; other purposes, £230,000. When from these sums was deducted Treasury Bills redeemed, the total would, it was said, reach £18,205,000. The final statement of the Colonial Treasurer said as follows :—“ When the amount still to be raised is obtained the total indebtedness will be £19,880,906, and the total annual charge thereon £1,035,775, but before this prospective debt is reached the whole of the balance now available, plus the proceeds of the portions of loans to be raised, in all £3,877,696, will have to be expended. Assuming this to be in t wo years, the accumulated sinking fund will by that time have practically reduced the debt to £17,980.906. Some of the loans forming this debt are specially secured on the proceeds of land, which will accrue at intervals.” If a return could be obtained of the precise sum paid for work done out of this enormous sum, it would be both startling and instructive, and he believed they would find it would be a very low rate of percentage to nut the rate of interest down at 6 per cent per annum. Taking it at that even, the intrinsic cost to the colony would be equal in round numbers to an annual charge of over one million a year. Against this, however, must be set the great advantages accruing to the colony from a cheaper and more rapid means of conveying produce and goods, and for travelling. The leans have now been consolidated, and as all the other loans have been made by the colony the whole of the sums were colonial debts. Therefore all the provinces had to depend upon was their own resources, eked out by such sums as the log rolling powers of Superintendents and their following could force from a yielding Ministry. It was notorious that this had existed for some time, as even a Premier had said that it was often impossible for a Treasurer to maintain his position without conceding to the rapacity evinced by the provincial parties for a share of ths plunder. [Cheers and “ Oh, oh.”J It was, therefore quite time that some steps should be taken, to put an end to such a state of things. [Cheers.] Therefore, he thought they would agree with him when he said that he considered that it was a wise step when the General Government did away with the borrowing powers of the provinces, and made the loans colonial debts in the strictest sense of the word. He would like to ask what the provinces had to do I He had referred to the dangers and difficulties of the log-rolling carried on. It was a notorious fact that so much log-rolling had been carried on, that it was impossible for any Ministry, either Sir Julius Vogel or Mr Stafford, to help buying support; they could not do without it. Under the existing state of things it was a notorious fact, one admitted on all sides, without any reservation, that no Government could hold its place independently without support from superintendents and bands of members from various parts of the colony. [Cheers.] But this was not the only reason why the people were in favor of the abolition of provincialism. The spread of the efficient means of communication by means of the electric telegraph, and improved steam communication, and the increase of population, had all conduced to the wish of the people for a united and central Government. [Cheers.] As regarded railways they tad an instance of what had been called political railways in the shape of the Swannanoa railway, which ran through a part of the Kaiapoi district, and stopped at a certain point. [Cheers and hisses.] There the power brought to bear on the Government had been too strong, and they had to give way, which bore out his argument as to the influence of log rolling on the Government. They had now some nine separate Legislatures passing laws throughout the colony on the same subjects, so that it was impossible forthe cutest lawyer to say what was really the: law. [Laughter.] The present agitation; was first brought forward by the Government in the last session in the shape of a: proposal to do away with the provinces in the North Island, but no one could doubt for one moment that the abolition of the Middle Island would follow, and that the’ whole of the provinces would be swept away.. [Cheers ] Had the Government simply carried out the abolition of the North Islandprovinces they would have had one set of members representing one state of things, and another set representing a totally different state. This of course would only have resulted in anarchy, and ended in a revolution—not an armed revolution, but a moral revolution. [Cheers.] He would now read them an extract from Sir George Grey’s despatch as to the constitution of the colony in the early days. He said in his despatch—“ la the Middle Island, as in the Northern Island, no overland communication except for foot passengers as yet exists between the different settlements. I think it must be clear that between colonies so constituted little of what may be termed community of interest can be said to exist. There is na general capital or mart, to which all merchants and persons having extensive business can at all times resort. There is no one central town for all the islands in which the courts of law hold their sittings. Any attempt, therefore, to form a general Legislation for such a group of colonies, which should at present annually, or even more frequently, assemble, and which should be so composed as fairly to represent the various interests of all parts of this country, must, I think, fail.” Now this was important, because it showed what was thought of the constitution at that time, and he thought it had done its duty well, Earl Grey went on to say in his despatch to Sir George Grey, as regarded the constitution of the Provincial Councils. —“ It has been thought advisable that the Provincial Councils should consist of a single chamber, consisting wholly of elected members. They (the Imperial Government) have been led to this conclusion mainly by the comparatively unimportant nature of the functions of these Councils, which will be limited to local objects such as would be considered here (ie, in England) to be of a municipal character rather than partaking of the higher attributes of legislation.” Again, “ Nor have any provisions been inserted giving executive authority of any kind to the Superintendents. This is a point on which her Majesty’s Government did not feel that they had sufficient information to adopt any definite course, while the general prerogative of the Crown and the powers of the general and local legislatures

seemed amply sufficient to provide whatever might be ultimately deemed advisable.” He wished them particularly to mark this, as showing what Provincial Councils were originally intended to be. [Cheers j Sir George Grey then proceeded to call Provincial Councils into operation before he did the General Assembly, and instead of these bodies keeping in view their proper functions, that of making local bye-laws, they had gone in for legislation of a general character, and then they had accumulated a large number of heterogeneous laws upon the statute book, which were in many instances contradictory, and opposed to each other. [Cheers,J Some twenty years ago, in 1856, Mr Fitzgerald, in a letter to his constituents, stated that it was his opinion that the colony was overpowered, and the scheme too cumbrous and weighty. He proposed to go back to the system of 1846, and have no General Government, but simply Provincial Governments over the colony ; but this, of course, could not be done. The feeling expressed by Mr Fitz Gerald had been growing until now, when it was considered necessary to do away with provincialism at once, and it would now be done. [Cheers.] A gentleman who had taken great interest in the colony had said that if the land revenue was all gone the Provincial Councils would still have woik to do in the making of laws for the good order and peace of the country. But he (Mr Williams) said that it was not at all necessary to have ten parliaments, not mere municipalities—but arrogating all the powers of parliaments, and casting forth on the colony floods of legislation which no one understood. [Cheers.J They had thirtynine gentlemen in Canterbury sitting in their gorgeous chamber, and doing what? Why, simply nothing. [Laughter,] If they had a little Bill to pass for a bridge, they had to go through the most awful forms. [Renewed laughter.] Then they had that most awful of ceremonies, the resignation of the Ministry. [Laughter.] Last session he thought, from the amount of notes passing about, and consultations which took place, that a telegram was about to be sent through the German Consul here to Count Bismarck, stating that if the German Empire did not reduce her army and navy that New Zealand must arm, [Laughter.] There really could not have been mote fuss if such a telegram had been sent. [Laughter.] It really was a most ridiculous thing that all this farce should be gone through to carry on the business the Provincial Council transacted. [Cheers.] The expense was also an item, as it cost £l2O per week for the Canterbury Provincial Council. Besides this, it was impossible for a man to do his duty in one of these little Provincial Councils, without personalities being brought to bear upon them, an'd preventing right and justice being done. For the past twelve years he himself had been almost continually in hot water—-[laughter]—because of the personalities being brought to bear upon him. In the Parliament of the colony this could not occur, because it would be removed from all local influences. He would now ask them what would be the result to the province as a whole if the Provincial Council had not been sitting for the last twelve years. He said it would not have mattered one iota. [Cheers.] In South Canterbury they were unanimous in saying that they were perfectly sure that provincialism was of no use at all to them, and that they were likely to get more from the present Government’s proposals than ever had been the case under provincial institutions. [Cheers ] In respect to the doing justice to outlying districts, the people of Christchurch had passed a resolution approving of the Timaru and Gladstone Bill, which showed that they were of opinion that this was a very good measure, and one likely to result in the welfare of the province. He also thought that if the proposition for doing away with provincialism had been then before them the people of Christchurch would have voted for it as one man. [Cheers and “No, no.”] As regarded the proposition of the Government to give £L for £l, Christchurch would receive £14,000 this year in addition to the fees, which would raise it to £17,000, [Cheers. ] Did they think that Mr Maskell, the Provincial Secretary, would propose to give them £IO,OOO next session ? Not he, and if he did they would not get it. [Laughter, ] At one time he was of opinion that the matter should be delayed for the electors to express their opinion upon, but after having seen those Bills he did not see anj reason for delay; he said let them have it as soon as they possibly could, [Loud cheers,] If they were to delay till after the general election, the Government would be stronger than ever on the question of abolition. If these Bills became law they would have an Assembly strong enough to take off the taxation now placed so heavily on the necessaries of life through the Customs, and put it on the property of those people who had made money out of the country and never coniributed their fair share to its burdens. [Cheers.] If the Government proposals were carried out they would have a stronger Assembly than ever they had, and they would have an Assembly strong enough to place the taxation on the property nolders, who now reaped the benefit of the railways made out of the taxation paid by the people. [Cheers.] He now begged to move the resolution. [Cheers.] Mr T. D. Jones seconded the motion, and hoped the meeting would strengthen the bands of the Government by unanimously passing the resolution, [Cheers.] He looked upon this from a municipal point of view, and he said that now they in Christchurch had at last an opportunity of having that fair measure of justice done to them which had been refused to them by the Provincial Council. [Loud cheers.] He now again asked them as a meeting to strengthen the hands of the Government by being unanimous on the subject. [Cheers.] The Rev C. Fraser said be wished to call the attention of the meeting to the manner in which the requisition for that meeting was framed, and therefore he proposed to move an amendment upon the resolution. [" Oh, oh,” and uproar ] It appeared to him that Mr Wynn Williams had changed most remarkably between the Monday and Wednesday. [Laughter.] Mr Wynn Williams had addressed the requisition to his Worship the Mayor on the Monday, but on the Wednesday he changed his mind entirely. He would now move the following amendment, yi z <• That this meeting is of opinion that the Abolition of Provinces Bill should not be forced on without affording the people ol the colony an opportunity of exercising their right to vote upon so important an organic change in the constitution of the colony at the approaching general election, [Hisses {vxici cheers. *| His Worship the Mayor said that he hoped the meeting would hear both sides of the question, [Hear, hear, J

Mr Fraser said he thought if the people of the colony would give their deliberate consideration to the n> atter, they would either be able to say what they proposed to put in the place of provincial institutions, or what should be done. He shared very much in the irritation which had been justly felt at the way in which the Provincial Council had treated several subjects of interest to them as citizens in the last session of the Council, For instance, the matter of drainage had not been fairly treated, nor that of public buildings. [Cheers.] He feft sure that many of these gentlemen had they to go before their constituents once more would not again be returned. [Cheers.] He thought that a very important question coming before the electors at the next general election was the increase of the representatives on the basis of population. [Cheers.] He (Mr Fraser) would desire to point out that besides their General Assembly they had a Legislative Council, which had a veto on all laws, but which was not representative at all. If they wished to abolish the provincial institutions, which were really representative whatever were their faults, then let them abolish the Dpper House, as it was now, and make it elective, [Cheers.] Until this was done he thought they should pause ere they swept away their Provincial Councils, which at any race represented them. [Cheers ] Then again they had only one scheme before,them ; they had been told by Sir George Grey—the great Pro-Consul of the present age that he had a scheme, and it was only fair that they should wait until they had this before them. [Cheers.] Now let them look at what was proposed. They would still have a Superintendent—perhaps Mr Rolleston —but the great change would be that they would not be able to vote for him. So as regarded the Minister for Education, the Secretary for Public Works, and the Provincial Secretary. All these offices would be retained, not as the representatives of the popular voice, but as the nominees of their Governors and rulers in Wellington. [Cheers.] This was what the Bill proposed. Now let them look at what was proposed for Christchurch. They got their fees and licenses in common with other Boad Board districts, it was said. He was not so thankful for that, as it was but common justice ; and he thought they would have got it from the Provincial Council if they had fought it out. [“ No, no. ] Well, he would have been prepared tohave fought it. The Bill proposed to give £1 out of the consolidated revenue, and £1 out of the land fund to the Road Boards; but why did not the Government pay them the same ? He thought they should say that they belonged to a province which had a laud revenue, and should get the same as the Road Boards. This was what he thought they should do. Besides this, he had his doubts as to the £1 out of the consolidated revenue, but the £ 1 out of the land revenue was certain, or nearly so. In 1880 the land revenue would be raised considerably, out of which the Road Boards would be paid, but the consolidated revenue, out of which they were to get their £IJ might be done away with. [Dproar, and cries of “ Time.”] The consolidated revenue might continue, but it was certainly on the cards that the large debt they had incurred might come upon it, and then all they would have left would be their fees. He did not wish to push his political opinions down their throats, but he said that this was not the best thing they could get, and they should take time to consider it. The Parliament of the colony would come to an end in about six months, and he asked them whether it would not be worth while to take that six months to consider and duly deliberate. [Cheers,] He thought if they did this the country would work out a perfect system. He felt this, and he hoped they would not allow themselves to be carried away by a feeling of indignation against any body on the one hand, or by any bribes which might be held out on the other. He would now beg to propose the amendment which he had read to them. [Cheers.] Mr Maskell, who was received with mingled hisses and cheers on coming forward to second the amendment, said that it appeared that to certain gentlemen in the room his appearance there was not popular, but he was a citizen, and had a perfect right to express his opinion. [Cheers ] He would do so whether they approved of it or not, and he was going to do so by seconding the amendment proposed by Rev Mr Fraser. [Cheers.] The reason why he was going to do so was, that it appeared to him since the proposals of the Government were brought forward that full time should be given to the people to consider them. It might be said that for years the people of the colony had made up their minds that provincial institutions should be abolished, but this was quite different to saying that the people had made up their mind as to what should be put in its place. He considered it was not only absurd, but positively mischievous to ask the people of Canterbury if the meeting was to be considered as representative of the province, to adopt a Bill which they had only had a week to consider, [A Voice: “ How long did you give us to see the Education Bill.”] He was there to speak in favor of an institution which, for twentyfive years had worked better in Canterbury than in any province in the colony, and also better than the General Government had done here. [Cheers and hisses.] He desired to point out, as had been done by Mr Fraser, that the Superintenden would be nominated by the Government, and not elected by the people. This was a most mischievous proposition, taking as it did the election out of the hands of the people and putting it into the hands of an irresponsible body. Then again there was a provision in the Bill that insolvent provinces could be carried on for a year by means of Treasury bills. Well this seemed very easy, but supposing these Bills were not met where was the money to come from? How did they know but that they themselves would have to pay towards the carrying on of these impecuniary provinces. [Cheers.] The seconder of the resolution had put the case is a nut-shell, when he said that he looked upon it from [a muni cipal point of view. [A VOICE —“Oh, he’s a fool.”] The fact was that they were now asked to sell their birthright in the province for £7OOO a year, simply promised to the city of Christchurch. [Cheers and hisses.] The city of Christchurch was not Canterbury, and he said that any one who voted for the abolition of the provinces simply because Christchurch was promised £7OOO, was selling his birthright for a mess of pottage. [Cheers and hisses ] Now. a great deal had been said against the Provincial Council but he thought there was a great I deal to be said in its favour. [“ No, no.”] I Mr Wynn Williams had asked whether he (Mr Maskell), as Provincial Secretary, would

proposed £IO,OOO for the city of Christchurch 7 He replied that he would do so. [Uproar, hiss -s, and cries “ It won’t do.”] He said again if the revenues of the province would afford it, he would do so. [Uproar.] The Government, of which he was a member, had always expressed their intention of doing justice to Christchurch, and had done so. [“ No, no,” and uproar.] He said that they would get far less under the proposed Bill than they would from the Council. [Uproar, and “No, no.’ J Some short time back a paper, which had been most consistent in its advocacy of abolition, had applied terms almost libellous to the members of the General Assembly, and had denounced them in no measured terms, and yet it was to this body that Mr Williams wished to hand them over, bound hand and foot, and make sole arbiters of their destinies. He contended that the Provincial Council had dealt far more fairly and equitably with the province than the General Assembly ever could. [Hisses, “ No, no,” and cheers.] They were proposing to hand over the control of their revenues to persons living at a distance from them, and taking it away from those amongst them. He was not prepared to say that the provinces should not be abolished —[cheers] —but what he said was this, that they would do far better to wait and consider the subject calmly and deliberately at the next general election. A meeting such as this was not able to fairly and calmly discuss a great constitutional question like this, therefore he asked them to wait for a time, and consider and think out the whole subject. [Uproar and cheers.] Mr A. Saunders disagreed both with the resolution and amendment, both as regarded the postponement of the question and the immediate carrying out of the Government proposals. He objected to the latter because the mover had so framed the resolution as to imply an approval of the Government measures. He considered that there was no doubt that a dissolution and appeal to the couni ry upon this question would tend to fill the Assembly with members strongly in favour of abolition. [Cheers.] Whatever the result of that meeting was, the fate of the provinces was sealed, and they would fall. [Cheers,] What he wanted to say was that they should consider the question of electing members to the Assembly far more than the consideration of a Bill which might be rescinded at the next session. In 1861 he might point out an election was taken on the question of the question of the Maori war, and the result was a House which never fairly represented the country, which incurred that wretched liability, the three million loan, and introduced from Australia the very scum of the country. He must say, however, returning to the subject of the meeting, that he was surprised to hear Mr Maskell say that the Provincial Council had dealt fairly with Christchurch. He thought it had never done so, nor had it done so with regard to the other centres of population. Therefore he thought that they could not be worse treated than they had been by their own Provincial Council. But while saying this, he must say that the proposals of the Government in these Bills were most objectionable. It proposed to take all popular control out of the hands of the people over the Superintendents, while they had far more power. They might do all they liked, misrepresent the people or disregard their interests, and no one would have the power to interfere. He thought it likely thatthe present Superintendent would be appointed as the nominee of the Government, and therefore he thought that the evils would not come on them at first. The Superintendents had, he might point out, always fought against their appointment for life, regarding the trust given them from the people as more honorable; Besides this, the appointment of these officers, such as Secretaries, Treasurers, &c, would give a fearful amount of power into the hands of the Government and these officers, without any adequate control from the people. They must recollect that they would have a House composed of a tenth of paid officers, which would give the Government great powers of influence, and the Bill in this respect was very objectionable. He would much raither have seen that the representatives of the Government should be elected by the people, which would give them a very great deal more security. 1 Cheers.] In the Local Government Bill, the Government proposed that the holder of large property should have six votes while the smaller holder only had one. [Hisses.] He should have thought this would have secured the opposition of Mr Williams, it certainly would have his (Mr Saunders.) He would remind them that these Boards would be their on y provincially elected Boards, and that it would be very mischievous if they allowed property holders to swamp the population. [Cheers,] He disliked the Government Bill exceedingly, but the more so because it was a dishonest Bill. | Cheers.] The Bill, so far from giving them more, actually proposed to give them less. They were, told that their borrowing powers were come to an end; but it, instead of receiving two millions from the old country, they had to send away one million, it must be at once seen that the promises of the Government were not possible. Cities were now promised more, Road Boards also ; rich provinces were to have their land fund, and bankrupt provinces were to be kept going ; but where was it to come from 7 How were these fair promises to be carried out 7 He did not see ; but he looked upon it that they would only receive these good things for a short time—if at all—and then the revenue would be a diminishing one. But beyond this, he objected to this Bill, because it was unfair to the provinces of Otago and Canterbury. They would see that it was proposed to borrow jmoney, out of which the insolvent provinces would have to be sustained. The fact was that the poor provinces would continue to borrow as long as Canterbury and Otago liked to pay for them. He would now read them the amendment he intended to propose when the proper time came. Whatever the result of that meeting was that night the provinces would be swept away, but he hoped they would not view with approbation the Government measures, which were the most disreputable he had ever seen, thrown as they were amongst the people with the view of catching the popular favor. [Cheers,] He would now read his amendment, which he would propose as follows, viz:— “ That the treatment which this city has received from the present Council of this province is such that this meeting can have no desire to prolong the existence of such injustice by opposing the immediate abolition of Provincial Councils; at the same time it desires to avoid any expression of approbation of the Government measures, especially in their substitution of nominated for elected Superintendents, the

excessive plurality of votes they give to property at the election of the new Boards, and the large borrowing powers they confer upon provinces that have neither land nor land revenue to oiler as security,” He wished in conclusion to say that the reform would begin, not in the Council Chambers, but in the cottages, not by the elected, but by the electors, and he begged them not to commit themselves hastily to an expression of approval of Jthe Government i'measures, which were in themselves thoroughly mischievous. [Cheers. [ Mr E. C. J. Stevens, who was loudly cheered on coming forward, said that a long time had elapsed since he had the pleasure of addressing a public meeting on questions of public importance ; but as an old politician, and one who took a great interest in the subject they had met there that evening to discuss, he trusted they would allow him to say a few words. In viewing the measures of the Government—though he could hardly be looked upon as a supporter of theirs—bo failed to see the pernicious principles and dishonesty which appeared to be so singularly clear to the vision of his friend on his right (Mr Saunders), who bad just addressed them. On the contrary, though he did not agree with all that was set forth in them, he viewed with satisfaction the near approach of a state of things for which he had longed for seme time, when it would be possible for the country to be governed by Parliament as a whole and not in pieces. [Cheers. | Until the propositions now before them were made, the possibility of having any politics in the colony had been beyond reach. They were told that they were going to be deprived of their liberties because they were to have a nominated administrator of the Government, They were told that it was an exceedingly dangerous thing to destroy the provincial institutions of the colony unless they made the Legislative Council elective. With regard to the latter, he would like to be shown what the elective Provincial Councils had done to conserve the rights of the people as compared with the Legislative Council. Let him point out the action taken by the Legislative Council some two years ago, when the Provincial Loans Bill was sent up from the House of Representatives. He was sorry Mr Saunders had forgotten this. Why, the Legislative Council had thrown out this Bill, a Bill which would have been exceedingly disastrous to the provinces. [Cheers.] Let them look what Provincial Councils had been doing for the country, and what they had done. He did not think they had done very much good for us, [Cheers.] When anythiig was wanted to be done they had to appoint a Board to get it done. For education, they had had a Board of Education; for the conservation of their rivers they had a Board of Conservators, and they had a Board also for the management of their parks and domains. What hand had the Provincial Council, as such, in these matters ? Simnly none at all. [Cheers. J What should they miss if they took away Provincial Councils 7 They would not lose anything ; hence he could not see why they should object to exchange what ivas of no use at all to them for a system under which they would reap many and manifest advantages. [Cheers.] Sir George Grey, who had been referred to in such flattering terms, had said that their liberties were to be trampled upon by these propositions of the Government ; but what was the fact? They had their Legislature, the General Assembly, and really by these Bills they would give strength to it, such strength as it had not possessed before. [Cheers.] Their representatives were responsible to their constituents, not one whit less than before, and this he took it, was the key of the whole position. What he, and he believed every elector, wanted, was that nothing should stand between him and the responsibility of his representative, and this they jhad to the fullest extent, under the Government Bills. What was the good of their having inferior Parliaments to control— or exercise a fancied control—over the greater one 7 [Cheers. 1 Referring now to what Mr Saunders had said as regarded nominated administrators) of Government: He asserted that no Government would dare to put in a man who was obnoxious to the people. [Oh, oh.”J Well, he thought if it was so, that their representatives would soon be called upon to resign. [A Voice: “ Teddy Wakefield will not resign.”] If they took that view of it, it seemed to him that it was a mistake. [Hear, hear.] All he said was this, give him a Parliament responsible to the people, and he was quite willing to stand bj the acts of the majority, though it was quite possible he might be in the minority for a time—[Cheeis] —and he conceived they could not wish for a iairer representation than this. They now had heavy and complicated machinery at work in the process of governing, and it was perfectly clear that this state of things could not continue, therefore they were bound to see without delay how to establish a strong and effective Government to manage their affairs. [Cheers.] This they had never had yet—[Cheers]—and he assertod from his personal experience in Parliament, for five years, and from his reading, that they had never had a ghost of it. [Cheers ] If they agreed with him, and he thought they would, that all that was necessary for the good Government and well-being of the people was preserved to them by the measures of the Government, then they ought to accept them, and that without any delay. [Cheers.] He would tell them what they had to look to, which was, the preservation of their land fund and the preservation of their system of education. [Mr Saunders—- “ There is no mention of education in the Bill.”] He begged the gentleman’s pardon, the express statement of the Government, as contained in the financial statement, was that the present system of education should not be disturbed except to improve it where it was not efficient, [Cheers.] The declaration of the Government was that they would make it a general expense, and thus make it a system of national education, and he thought the Government were quite right in this. [Cheers.] Now a great deal of capital had been made by the opposition to the Government proposal as regarded their land fund. They had been warned that th> ir laud fund was in danger, that the Government intended to sweep it away, and a great many assertions of this kind. Now if they would listen to what he had to say on this subject for a few minutes, he would endeavour to show them the fallacy of these assertions. He was prepared to say that their land fund was safer now than ever, and he would tell them why. There existed in the minds of some public men, and through them it had obtained some credence from the public generally, an idea that the land fund being brought into the common stock, the provinces who had got no land fund, together with the votes of the

Northern members, would be sufficient to bring about an alteration of the compact of 1856. But he would desire to call their attention to the fact that by the proposition of the Government to endow all the provinces out of the land fund, all would be interested in the preservation of the compact of 1856; and this inducement, which was a very strong one, had never been in force until the present proposal. The land fund, therefore, was safer than ever, because it was the declared opinion of the members of the North Island that it would be undesirable to alter the compact of 1856, and he would tell them why. It was because they had a land fund of their own, which they never had before. The Government had received power from the Assembly to devote £700,000 towards the purchase of native land in the North Island to create a land fund for it. That land, although not sold, was still retained for that purpose, and comprised to his own know! ,dge an area of about 1,600,000 acres. It might be said that it was not very good, but £700,000 had been exin the purchase, and Sir Donald McLean, whose ability as Native Minister vvas well known, was hardly the man to give £700.000 for land which was worth nothing. [Oheeis.] But this was not all ; he himself had recently had a conversation with a Superintendent in the North Island, who said that the Government would not allow them to sell the land for provincial revenue, and he did not think that gentleman would bay® been so miserable about it if the land had been worth nothing. [Cheers.] He might say at once, and he did so most distinctly, that he would not be in favor of abolition, however much he might consider it desirable, if he thought our land fund was to be brought into the common stock. [Cheers.] But now let them look at the opposition to the Government Bills. Who was the leader ? Why Sir George Grey, and they need only refer to his speeches when elected as Superintendent of Auckland, in the room of Mr Willliamson, and when elected as member for Auckland City West, to see something of his intentions as regai ded the land fund of the Middle Island. If the gentleman who had styled him the first pro-consul of the age did not know what he intended to do he would tell them ; he intended to take the land fund of Canterbury and Otago. [Cheers.] There was no mistake about that. He would tell them also that Mr Fitzherbert, Sir George Grey’s henchman and right hand man, was looked upon in the Assembly as the member most devoted to the getting of the land fund of these provinces. In fact, and he said this without any disrespect whatever, he had heard him likened to Mr Fagin—[laughter] and if they were readers of Charles Dickens they would remember that gentleman was depicted as teaching little boys to put their hands in other people’s pockets. [Laughter.] He had he thought conclusively shown them that their land fund was safe, and also education, and therefore there was no ground for the assertion that their liberties would not be so. [Cheers.] Then there was a letter from Sir George Grey to the T Vairarapa Standard , signed by him, in which he drew attention to what he said was about to happen in the colony, and drawing an analogy between this and what had occurred in the history of Venice under the Council of Ten, saying that persons opposed to the Government were to be poisoned. This was whatit amounted to; that the great pro-consul before whose superior intellect all, no matter what their opinions, were to bow down, told them that if they were opposed to the Government they would be poisoned. As an old abolitionist, and as one who had never lost an opportunity of destroying the provinces by every means in his power, he could not refrain from expressing his sympathy with the provincialists, because he believed they had been treated in the most cruel and heartless manner that ever any body of politicians were. [Laughter.] The present Prime Minister had been a most ardent provincialist up to last year; he had done all he could to weaken the General Governments and to strengthen the Provincial Governments, but last year he discovered the provinces to be such a nuisance that he determined to get rid of them. If, therefore, they would accept his sincere sympathy, they were welcome to it. [Laughter and cheers,] The provincial system, so long as it existed, had been a bar to the efficiency of the legislation of the General Legislature, because, not only had they men going up t« vote for special districts, they could not help that in any Legislature, but fUcy had also men going in for block voting. They had had voters from one end of the colony voting in block with a view of procuring something for themselves. He told them that it would always render a Government powerless to carry out measures for the general good so long as they had this block voting in force. The system had been continued for some years, and lately it had become more intense than it had ever been before. He would not detain them much longer now, as it was probable they would have many opportunities of talking the matter over in public meetings, but he said that he did not see that if they waited six months they would get any better measures than they would get now. [Cheers.] In his opinion they would get worse, because the probability was that if they remitted this question to a general election they would find experienced men in politics, and general legislation excluded, and inexperienced men returned, and the Bills would thus suffer. [Cheers] Instead of being able, if they passed the Bills now, after the House was dissolved, to consider and mature the Bills, and make them the best they could, they would have the whole question of abolition and provincialism re-agitated and raised, and thus they would be prevented from utilising the time in perfecting the measures. [Cheers.] There was also something else worth .noting in connection with this branch of the subject, and that was this : If the Bills were deferred they would have every Superintendent, so soon as the House rose, calling his Provincial Council together, and going in to spend every penny they could lay their hands on, carrying out the principle of “ Let us eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die.” [Laughter and cheers.] The Bills were not perfect, there was the difficulty of the land question as regarded Nelson and Marlborough, but perhaps there was something as regarded this which the Government had yet to disclose. The question of Treasury Bills, referred to by Mr Saunders, was not so serious, because, as he had pointed out, the land in the North Island, purchased under the sanction of the Assembly, was large in extent and valuable, and would produce a large income, and it was on the security of this that the Treasury Bills would rest. For his own part he was altogether in favor of proceeding with the Government measures

at once. [Prolonged cheering.] They might be insufficient, but the grounds upon which they were asked to pause were entirely inconclusive. The question had been before the country for years, and last year, though only told that the Government measures referred to the North Island, it had been debated and considered in the constituencies as much from the point of view of total as partial abolition, [Cheers, and “ No, no.”] If they were to consult the towns and provinces of Otago and Canterbury, they would, he felt sure, find a large majority in favour of altering; the present state of things. [Cheers.] If they thought with him that the Bills contained the germs of a good policy, if they believed with him that their interests were provided for, he would ask them to give to the resolution proposed by Mr Wynn Williams their hearty and active support. (Loud and continued cheers.]

Dr Turnbull said he felt on this occasion thatit was almost impossible to do justice to this great subject. When he heard reputable citizens come forward and ask them to abolish institutions of a quarter of a century duration after a week’s consideration, he was awed at the hardihood of such a proposition. He felt that it was necessary that this question should be relegated for consideration to the real arbiters of the matter—the people. [Cheers and “No no.”] It was now proposed to amalgamate the whole of the powers of the Provincial Councils, but they must never forget that the Provincial Councils gave them power to legislate upon all questions affecting their local and domestic interests?, not to send their representatives to an irresponsible body miles away, but at their doors. He himself had been treated in such a way by this Provincial Council last session, that he almost had sufficient warrant for him to come to the constituency of Christchurch and say, “ Away with them, we will have no more of them.” But still he said this that this institution was alike the glory of the province and the colony, and he put aside all personal considerations, and hoped that they would not destroy the building in order to secure what was their right. He rejoiced that for the first time justice was going to be done, but still it might be done without abolishing an institution which had done so much towards the building up of the provinces and the colony. He had never heard that the Provincial Councils had been charged with corruption, but on the contrary. It seemed to him that the abolition of the provinces had been carried out in order that the laud revenues of the provinces might appear on the English money market to show reason for borrowing. Whatever Mr Stevens might say, there was a greater master than them all, that was dire necessity for money, and that would sooner or later sweep away their land fund to pay colonial loans. As a representative of a large constituency, he said that the people had not had a fair chance of considering the matter. There was not a word in either of the Government Bills which would indicate what benefit the working men and the tradesmen would receive. As regarded the land fund, they had got nothing from it for municipalities, and he would rather see it swept away than provincial institutions. [“ Oh, oh.”] Every man, woman, and child in the colony paid £5 a head in taxes for these loans, and he said if this land fund brought a million a year, let them apply it to reduce the taxation, which now swept away the greater part of the earnings of the working man. [Cheers, and cries of “ Time.”] What he asked was for the people to delay their descision on this important question until they had all the points before them. Let them delay, and. if the country came to a conclusion that the provinces should be abolished, no one would bow to their decision more readily and cheerfully than himself. [Uproar.] Dr Turnbull retired amid some confusion. Mr W. Wilson having taken the chair pro. tern ., His Worship the Mayor said that when he was elected as Mayor he had deemed it his duty to look into the matter of Provincialism and he there found that the Provincial Oouncial were plundering the taxpayers by using the capitation grant to save the outlying districts. [Cheers.] Beyond this he found that some years back the city of Christchurch was represented by four members, but as this did not suit some of the squatters the number was reduced to three out of thirty nine members. [Cheers.] This was a sample of the way in which justice had been refused to the city of Christchurch. Again last session they would recollect how the City Council and the members for the city had endeavored to get a small modicum of justice from the Provincial Council, but with what results? The result had been such as to disgust him most completely with Provincial Councils, and to heartily desire their abolition. [Cheers.] He for one did not place the slightest reliance upon the promises made by the provincial party, which was only a bid for their votes. [Cheers.] Several loose assertions had been made to the effect that the General Government could not carry out their promises. But beyond mere assertions nothing had been proved; and he would endeavour to show that they could. They were asked where the £1 for £1 for municipalities was to come from. Well, the General Government, during the last year, had paid £233,000 odd as the capitation grant of 15s per head, which would enable them to pay the £1 for £l, and leave them a large balance in hand. He was now going to show them what the cost of provincial institutions were. He found that on the Appropriation Bill that some £30,000 per year was the cost which would in a great measure be saved. [Cries of “ Time.”] His Worship retired, saying that he should like to spend an hour with them in pointing out the fallacy of the arguments against abolition. [Laughter.] Dr Foster proposed the addition of the following words to Mr Wynn Williams’s resolution—“ That this meeting hopes Parliament will not separate without passing the Government Bills.” Mr Williams preferred to have his resolution as it was. The Rev C. Fraser’s amendment was then put and lost, only a few hands being held up for it. Mr Wynn Williams’s motion was then put and carried almost unanimously, amidst cheers. Dr Forster moved—“ That his Worship the Mayor be instructed to forward the resolution to the Premier,” which was carried. Mr Saunders then moved his motion. Mr Higgins, M.P.C., then seconded the motion, amid some uproar. The motion was put and declared to be negatived by a large majority. A vote of thanks to his Worship concluded the proceedings.