GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Globe, Volume IV, Issue 363, 11 August 1875, Page 2

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

{From a correspondent of the Press.) HOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVES. Tuesday, August 10. The Speaker took the chair at the usual hour. stamp duties bill. Before going into committee on the Stamp Duties Bill, The Hon C. C. Bowen explained its provisions. The chief change was relative to mortgages, on which he asked the House to express a deliberate opinion. When there was plenty of machinery for collecting taxation it was wise to strike out harrassing duties from which little revenue was derivable. The Government saw no reason why mortgages, which were of a more permanent character, should not be taxed, when bills of exchange were not exempt, because there would be no more interference with trade or commerce. The Government had taken off some small items, which were simply nuisances, such as tradesmen's stamps for apprenticeships, &c. The assessment of Stamp Duty by the officers of the department was also an important change. Hitherto, in England, a man could put on what stamp he liked, but if not properly stamped, the deed was not receivable as evidence in a court of law. On the other hand, it was a great hardship to the public when a deed was once stamped in a public office, that the deed should be artificially invalidated on account of the revenue law having nothing to do with property. Therefore, the present Act provided that the officers in charge of the offices to which the document was brought to be stamped, should assess the duty, and when that duty was once assessed, whether right or wrong, the document could never be called in question. While the revenue was protected, the public were fully so. The alteration of the probate duty did not affect the law as a means of raising revenue, but merely engrafted the Victorian system to our own. Instead of probate duty collectable oh the estates of deceased persons as now with residuary legacy and other duties, it was intended to adopt one administration duty, which was made a first charge on the estates. Mr Bunny congratulated the Government on bringing down a useful consolidation measure, but proposed that the mortgages tax should be done away with. Instead of taxing the necessities of the people the Government should turn attention towards the wealthy classes. Mr Sheehan considered the present an inopportune time to levy fresh taxation. Mr feHEPHERD defended the proposal to tax mortgages, as being a tax upon rich men.

Mr Murray condemned the tax on railway and mining companies. Mr Pearce failed to see any cause to justify fresh taxation. Messrs J. E. Brown, Carrington, Kelly, Shepherd, and Montgomery, also opposed the proposal to tax mortgages. Hon C. C. Bowen in replying said in deference to the general expression that t he mortgage proposal would press heavily on the people, he would strike out all the taxes below a certain amount. The second reading was carried. QUESTIONS. (1) Mr SwAnson asked whether the Government intended to take any steps to enable the residents in Auckland city east to have access to the harbor, of which they have been deprived by the reclamation recently made in Official Bay; also whether the Government will re-erect the Wynyard pier, which has been destroyed by the same reclamation, and if so, when. (2) Mr Bunny asked whether any inquiry had recently been made into the management of the Foxton and Palmerston tranway, and into the conduct of the officers in charge there; and if so, whether they will lay on the table any report received from the officer who conducted the inquiry. (3) Mr Montgomery asked if the Government would lay on the table the latest return in possession of the Government showing the annual value o£ rateable property in each road district and municipality in the colony. (4) Mr Williams asked if the Government would appoint a Registrar of Births, Deaths, and Marriages at Kawakawa, Bay of Islands District. (5) Mr Murray asked Ministers if they would this session introduce a general measure to facilitate the construction of railways by local or private enterprise. In answer to questions, Government stated—(l) As to the first part, the matter was suhjudice; as to the second, he hoped to be able to make arrangements for landing at the spot indicated. (2) There had been an enquiry, but it was not considered advisable to lay it on the table, seeing criminal proceedings had arisen out of it. (3) The information would be supplied. (4) Owing the sparseuess of the population, it was not considered necessary. (5) Such a Bill had been in preparation, and would be laid on the table in a few days. NAPIER swamp. The Napier Swamp Nuisance Bill was read a second time. NOTICES. Among the notices was one by Sir C. Wilson that the evidence in Ward-Ohapman enquiry should be laid on the table. papers. A number of departmental papers were presented, including the marine report. DEATH OP MR TOLMIE. Mr McAndrew, in a few feeling words, referred to Mr Tolmie's death, and, as an elector of the district, expressed a hope that no time would be lost in issuing a writ for the vacancy. Sir D. McLean said it was only due to i he feelings of the deceased member's friends

that no action should be taken until after the funeral, when the official notification of the death would be immediately given to the Speaker. NATIVE STATEMENT. Sir D. McLean's statement on native affairs occupied an hour and a half in delivery, and was wholly printed. At its conclusion Mr Wood got up and objected to the system of reading Ministerial statements, and asked the House to insist that they should be viva voce, thus showing that they understood what they were talking about—that the matter was in their heads and not ou paper.

Sir G. Grey asked the House to show the country was governed by a Government of great Ministers and not by a band of clerks. That was the real question—were they to have great men acquainted with the subjects they were appointed to manage, and showing the House from the fluent manner in which they described the transactions of their departments, that they really directed their departments and mastered the details thereof, and that they were able to explain to the House and country in fitting language their schemes and the great policy they conceived. Was it to be possible that they might have a Ministry who represented the public offices only. There was no doubt whatever that at the present moment the Premier represented no one but the public service. [" No," from the Ministerial benches; and cheers from the Opposition.] That was an undoubted fact. [Cries of " No."J Well, whom did he represent? [Hon C. 0. Bowen—"He represents the Constitution." Loud laughter from the Opposition.] Then if the Premier represented the Constitution, the Ministers represent the public offices, and they read statements compiled by clerks who put them into their hands. [Hon E. Richardson—« Certainly not."] He said the Colonial Treasurer understood nothing whatever about the financial statement which he read the other night. [Cries of " No."] It was made up of returns compiled by clerks. The Treasurer had no conception of what he was reading, and the Government must have chuckled to themselves that they had found tue fitting talking bird. It was right that they should have in the House Ministers who would be able to show the House and the country that they were able to conduct its affairs, and explain lucidly and properly the great transactions connected with their several departments. He maintained that the statement just heard was in point. The last report was a true description of the policy which had been pursued in reference to the purchase of the native lands, for which £580,000 were already expended in a manner which no oue oould conceive, at least he never could, though paying the utmost attention to the subject. He hoped the people were not unworthy of the ancestry from which they sprung. In the British House of Commons no Ministry dared, man after man, to simply read reports to the House and country. Like great statesmen they would have showed that they had devoted months of attention to the subject on which they were addressing the House—that they conceived great plana and policies, which they understood, and were capable of expressing in proper language, and were not mere tools of clerks in the departments. He hoped the House would insist upon having correct statements made by Ministers who represented the House and country.

Hon Major Atkinson, in a vigorous speech, said it hardly become him to tell the House and the member for Auckland West what he well knew, that the financial statement was his (Major Atkinson's) own composition, after an immense amount of hard work, in which he had the assistance of the officers of the department. It was intended that the officers should give all the information of their department to Ministers. With regard to the question as to whether a statement should be read or not, it was for the House to decide. His own opinion wa3 that it was better to have a printed financial statement, so as to prevent mistakes and enable the statement to be at once placed in the hands of members. If the members opposite would take up the debate, and show that he (Major Atkinson) was wrong, he was prepared to meet their arguments, facts and figures, and he would be judged by the result. He regretted having to make such a statement, but Sir G. Grey's attack was most uncalled for, and he felt himself bound at once to s.-t himself right. He was waiting for the gentlemen opposite to begin. He hoped he would begin to-night, and then it would be seen whether the members on the Government benches understood or knew anything of the affairs of the country, or whether the gentlemen opposite knew better. He repeated, Ministers would be judged by the results. [Loud cheers.] Mr Macandkew repeated his question re the Caversham seat, and moved that a writ should at once issue, which was agreed to. Hon Mr Reynolds said his statement was written, because last year it was the general wish that he should do so. The matter then dropped. FIRST HEADINGS. The following Bills were read a first time: Copyright of Press Telegrams, Eoi Relief of Debtors and for the Better Security of Creditors, Punishment of Fraudulent Debtors, To Amend the a ßills ol Sale Act.

STATEMENT RELATIVE TO LAND PURCHASES IN THE NORTH ISLAND.

The Hon. Native Minister made the following statement: —Mr Speaker: Iconeider it due to the House that a statement should be made by me in reference to the expenditure of the money authorised under the Immigration and Public Works Acts 1870 and 1873 for the purchase of native land in the North Island. I think this has become necessary , as I am aware that much has been said during the recess calculated to lead to tha belief that sufficient care had not been taken to guard the public interests. I hope to be able to disabuse the minds of hon members, if they entertain such ideas, and to show that Government have at great disadvantage endeavored faithfully to carry out the views of the House, and have succeeded as well as could be reasonably expected. When it was decided by the General Assembly that a public estate should be acquired in the North Island, for the purposes of colonisation, the difficulties which had to be encountered were of no ordinary character. From the year 1840 to 1862, the task of acquiring land from the aborigines was not so difficult, the Crown having the exclusive right of purchase. The Constitution Act maintained the right of pre-emption ; but through the aotion of this House, the Crown abrogated this provision of the Constitution, relinquished its right of pre-emption, and passed a law, throwing open the,

lands held by the natives to private purchasers. Capitalists were not slow to avail themselves of the wide field thus opened out to them of profitably investing their money, and from tune to time valuable tracts of country were obtained by them. Able agents, many of them formerly officers of the native department, were employed. They were to be found in every district buying up the very choicest portions of the country, and year by year through their operations the carrying out of any large colonial scheme of land purchased was more and more difficult. In the year 1870 the immigration and public works policy rendered it necessary that large tracts of country should be acquired for settlement. -Accordingly the General Assembly voted first a sum of £200,000. and then a further sum of £500,000, to acquire land from the natives. In undertaking this task the Government found itself with scarcely any officers of experience to carry out the delicate work of land purchase negotiation. Men of ability were in the employ of the Government, but with few exceptions they were unacquainted with this peculiar duty, and could not therefore cope successfully with the experienced agents in the employ of capitalists, to be met with in all parts of the island. It must be remembered that lands which had passed through the Native Land Court were open to all alike. There was no exception in favor of the Government, a slight advantage truly was gained by the colony under the provisions of the Immigration and Public Works Acts over lands which had not been adjudicated upon, which gave the Government protection for two years. It was found expedient to make terms with the most active and successful of these agents, and offer them inducements to enter the Government service. Without their co-operation, it waß almost hopeless to carry out to a successful issue the objects this House had in view when it placed at the Government's disposal such large sums of money. Even with the assistance of these gentlemen, I have only to refer hon members to the reports of the land purchase officers and agents laid on the table of the House, to show that the difficulties which had to be encountered were of no ordinary kind, and yet the results are, I submit, on the whole, very favorable to the country. It should also be remembered that the peaceful aspect of native affairs in the North Island has tended to advance the settlement of the country, and has increased the demand for land by capitalists from the South Island and the Australian colonies. In 1873 unimproved lands could be purchased in the Waikato for prices not exceeding ten shillings per acre. The same lands cannot now be purchased under from one to two pounds per acre. Such has been the competition for land that the agents of private parties have gone into districts proclaimed under the Immigration and Public Works Act, and have purchased choice blocks at a higher rate than the Government werp offering with the full knowledge that they had no chance of obtaining a title during the currency of the proclamation, but trusting to make their claims good when it should lapse. I need not take up the time of the House by enlarging on this subject ; but I have said enough to convince hon members that in acquiring the estate which has been secured we have much to contend against from the competition of our own countrymen, to eay nothing of the trouble and anxiety of dealing with a race so proverbially jealous and tenacious of their lands as the natives. From this statement it will be seen that the area of land acquired by purchase or lease since 1872, the year the Government commenced the present land purchases under the Immigration and Public Works Act,lß7o,have been: In the Province of Auckland by purchase 490,784 acres, by lease 391,601 ; in the Province of Hawke's Bay, by purchase, 240,537; in the Province of Wellington, by purchase, 429,702 ; in the Province of Taranaki, by purchase, 170,499; making a total of 1,331,522 acres purchased at a cost of, including £13,000 charged for expenses of department, commissions, &c, £164,218 10s Id, or 2s s|d per acre; and 391,601 acres leased, on which have been paid the sum of £2987 9s Id. Theincomplete transactions represent, in the province of Auckland by purchase 1,618,686 acres, by lease 1,214,667; in the province of Hawkes Bay, by purchase 37,000; in the province of Wellington, by purchase 1,202,026, by lease 307,836; in the province of Taranaki, by purchase 84,130; being a total of 2,941,842 'acres under purchase and 1,522,512 acres under lease; in all 4,464,344 acres, on which has been paid, including £13,135 2s 8d for departmental services, the sum of £118,823 Is. From these totals it will be seen that no less than 6,187,467 acres of land have been negotiated for since 1872, on which moneys have been paid amounting to £286,029 0s 2d. The total amount charged against the sums voted by Parliament for land purchase purposes to the 30th June last was referred to by my hon colleague the Colonial Treasurer, in his financial statement, as £377,059 18s Id. Some explanation may be necessarv as to the difference between this sum and that of £286,029 0s 2d before noticed by me as the total payments made for actual land purchase purposes, a difference of £75,344 4s 6d. This amount is made up from payments made to the province of Auckland (under authority of sections 47 and 48 of the Immigration and Public Works Act, 1872), £17,917 ; province of Hawke's Bay, £3OOO ; transfer to Native Land Aet account under Appropriation Acts of 1872-73-74, £24,292 8s sd; advance under the New Zealand Settlements Act (confiscated lands), £20,500 ; expenses of raising loan, £9534 Is Id. In suspense account, £IOO 15s; total, £75,344 4s 6d. This sum of £75,344 4s 6d, as against £286,029 os2d actually paid for lands, certainly appears large, but it must be borne in mind that, with the exception of £20,500 advanced to the New Zealand Settlements Act, the whole has been charged in accordance with the votes of this House. The fact should also not be lost sight of that a large proportion of the expenses incurred by the native land courts have been in the investigation of title to the land purchased under the provisions of the Immigration and Public Works Acts. The Government have steadily kept in view the twofold objects of providing land for the large influx of population and of securing those districts to the colony through which public works and undertakings are being carried on. In the consideration of this question there is another point which should be mentioned. The Government have endeavoured to ac quire land in large blocks where possible. The advantage gained is obvious, but in doing so of necessity lands of all descriptions were included. Much land fit for special settlement has been purchased. Lands supposed to be of average quality have on closer inspection by the surveyors turned

out better than was anticipated. Reports of the surveyors have been laid on the table of the House. A large area of land has been secured in the Taupo country, which, as every one knows who has been through that district, is generally of inferior description ; but even for that there has been considerable competition. There are some very valuable blocks now under negociation, which in the course of a few months will be in the hands of the Government; but I would ask hon members, especially those of them who are not acquainted with the difficulties and the sometimes harrassing work of negotiation with the natives, to restrain impatience. Lands are now being purchased in districts where a few years ago a European could not show his face. In proof of this, I would only point to the Taranaki and Upper Wanganui districts, and if the Government carry on the work as they may deem safe and advisable, a large colonial estate will be obtained; but if undue pressure is brought upon the land purchase agents to urge on these purchases, not only will our present good understanding with the native race be endangered, but the main object in view marred by unwise and premature action. Negotiation of this nature can only be carried out with the intelligent assent of the natives, and this can only be obtained when they have realised the advantages to be gained from having European settlers in their neighborhood.

STATEMENT ON MARINE MATTERS. The Commissioner op Customs (the Hon W. Hunter Reynolds) said—Mr Speaker, last session I was frequently applied to in the Housvi for information regarding the marine department, and you will remember, Sir, that before the session closed I stated what progress had been made in the works undertaken by the department during the recess, and also the views of the Government as to what further action should be taken during the then current year. Anticipating the wish of the House for further information, I now propose to show what has been done during the past year and what is proposed for the present. Lighthouses.—Shortly after the termination of last session officers of the marine department were despatched to visit the Brothers in Cook's Straits, with a ?iew to ascertain whether it would be advisable to erect a lighthouse on one of these islets instead of at the entrance to Tory Channel, and afterwards to visit the sites of the proposed lighthouse in the Middle Island. From the reports received, and which I have just laid on the table, it was decided to erect a lighthouse at the Brothers instead of at Tory Channel. The apparatus, which had been ordered to Tory Channel, and which is now in the colony, will consequently not be required for that place, and is unsuitable for the Brothers, but will be available for Hokitika, where it is proposed to erect it. In connection with Tory Channel I may also state, that last month Captain Johnston of this department was sent to select sites for the erection of leading lights to guide vessels into that channel, and as soon as the temporary beacons have been proved to be in their proper position, it is proposed to provide the lights . Having obtained all the requisite information as to the sites and class of lights required, an order was sent to England in February last for the necessary apparatus for lights to be erected on the Brothers in Cook's Straits at Puysegur Point and Centre Island in Foveaux Strait, at Moko Hinou Island, in Hauraki Gulf ; at Cape Maria Van Dieman at the extreme north of the North Island, and at Portland Island off the Mahia Peninsula. Advices have been received from the Engineer in Great Britain that the contracts for the lanterns and apparatus have been let a;id no time will be lost in erecting the necessary buildings, so that they may be ready, or nearly so, to receive the light when they arrive in the colony. A road party has been for some time at work forming a road from Puysegur point to Otago Retreat at the entrance to Preservation Inlet, the nearest convenient harbor, and a road has also been formed to the site of Cape Foulwind Lighthouse. The materials for this lighthouse are partly in the colony, and the remainder on the way from England, and the preparation is being made for erection of the towers and dwellings. The Government propose ordering at an early date lights for the following places : —Moeraki, Cape Saunders, Akaroa Heads, and a site yet to be fixed near the Eastern entrance to Hauraki Gulf. Yoar concurrence will be asked to these proposals when the estimates are under consideration, as also to provide for the erection of leading flights for 'lory Channel and for the removal of Mana Island light to Cape Egmont. The latter will have to await the completion of the light on the Brothers, and the acquiring of a suitable site, but the land being native property, requires further action to be taken by my colleague, the Native Minister. As even with the present number of lighthouses, considerable inconvenience has been caused at times through the services of the Luna not being available for the use of the marine department, and as both, during and after the erection of the proposed lighthouses, it will be absolutely necessary to have a steamer for the sole use of the marine department, an order, has been sent to England, for a steamer suitable for use as a lighthouse tender, and also for lifting buoys and moorings. In connection with the claims of the shipping community for the erection of additional lighthouses,l may point out that the light d ues for the past financial year amounted to £10,241 19s 6d, whilst the cost of maintaining the lights only amounted to £5767 48 9d, thus showing a profit of £4474 14s 9d. The profit during the previous financial year was £3989 lis 9d. From the Ist of July, 1866, to the 3»th June last, the revenue derivable from light dues has exI ceeded the working expenditure by £18,847 13s 6d. The returns of trade and shipping and the table attached to the marine reports now laid on the table of,the House, show the largely increasing trade of the colony, and whilst we are entitled to congratulate ourselves on such an increase, I think that it will be admitted that I am justified on behalf of the shipping interest in asking you to provide liberally for the further erection of lighthouses. The Government do not propose to reduce the dues, but rather to use any surplus, from time to time, towards increasing the number of lighthouses along the coast. Training School.—The Naval Training Schools Act, which was passed last session, has enabled the Government to establish a school at Kohimarama, near Auckland, in very suitable buildings belonging to the Melanesian Trust, together with the schooner Southern Cross as a training ship, I proceeded to Auckland last September with this object in view, and while there I was fortunate enough to enough to secure the services of

Lieutenant Tilly, R.N., who has devoted a great deal of his time to the starting of the institution and has rendered me most valuable assistance, through his instrumentality, I secured the services of Lieutenant Breton, E.N., to take charge of the institution. In April last I again paid a flying visit to Auckland, and was highly gratified to find that the selection of Captain Breton had been a most fortunate one. He has his heart in the work, and I have no doubt that the institution will prove a great success under his management. I found the boys well disciplined, happy, and proud of their occupation. They also showed considerable proficiency in working the Southern Cross during our short trip, doing everything themselves, even to steering the vessel. I found them also well trained in pulling in boats; while their nautical training had been attended to, they had not been in other respects, they were receiving a liberal education, and were also being taught the art of swimming. It is now generally admitted in the United Kingdom that in order to secure a sufficient supply of seamen for the mercantile marine the Government must give every encouragement to the maintenance of training ships and their tenders, and situated as we are, being also dependent on the sea as our great highway, we cannot do better than follow the example of the mother country. Storm Signals and Weather Reporting.—Some fifteen months ago the Government initiated a new branch of the marine department, for the purpose of obtaining reliable reports as to the state of weather in the various parts of the colony, in order that from examination of these observations, which are forwarded by telegraph to a central office, forecasts of the weather may be made, and by a system of storm signals masters ;of vessels may be prepared for approaching bad weather. This work has been confided to Commander Edwin, R.N., who I am glad to say has shown a great amount of skill, zeal, and energy in carrying out my wishes to secure this boon to the colony. Arrangements have been made by which Captain Johnson, in addition to his other duties in the Marine Department is associated with Captain Edwin in this branch of the service, so as to insure that in the event of Captain Edwin being unable at any time, either from sickness or other cause, to attend to this duty, the system will be carried on without risk of stoppage. From official reports which have been received, and are now laid before you, as well as from private sources, I am given to understand that the weather forecasts, given from the central office, have been generally very correct, that the information thus given has been highly appreciated at most of the shipping ports of the colony, and has been the means of pieventing loss and damage to many vessels. Honorable members must, however, bear in mind that such a scheme cannot be perfected in a day or a year. It is only very lately that Captain Edwin has been able to give anything like reliable information. Every day now will enable him to acquire further data on which to forecasts. In order that the necessary observations might be carried out with greater accuracy, a supply of superior meteorological instruments has been lately ordered from England, and it is hoped that the system will be in a most efficient state before our next meeting. With the certainty of this colony becoming a great maritime country. I look upon this and other kindred undertakings as second to no other interests. Lighting our coasts, training our seamen, and forecasting the weather, must of necessity largely occupy the attention of any Government for all time coming, and I have no doubt that these subjects will receive from the Legislature that consideration which they so well deserve. [Per Press Agency.]

THE ABOLITION BILL, SECOND READING. On resuming at 7.30 the galleries were densely crowded, and hundreds were unable to gain admittance. Sir George Grey rose amid considerable applause. He commenced by announcing that this was a very great occasion, one upon which all should acquit themselves as well as possible. It was an occasion upon which the Government were about to sweep away the Constitution by and unconstitutional means. [Dissent.] To clear away all doubts, he would say they had been termed provincialists, but they were really upholders of a great and magnificent edifice which was being thrown down and scattered about the ground. That was an image of provincialism at present. That grand building must either be restored to its pristine vigor and beauty, or else it must crumble away. Two eloquent speeches on his side of the question had been made on Government benches—one by the Treasurer and the other by the guide and protector of the Ministry, the member for Timaru. [Laughter.] The hon gentleman then proceeded to relate the history of granting the first constitution to New Zealand, which was at a period when the savage enemy was close to the present site of Wanganui. Upon his sole responsibility, and without counsel or advice, he took upon himself what few men would have done, and sent back home that constitution and all the documents connected with it, and then they got their second constitution, and there was not a single clause in that constitution that he did not ponder and brood over, and he took counsel from friends and foes alike. He dared, in the interest of the people of New Zealand, divulge his plans, the result of his earnest considerations; but having, after due deliberation and great care, decided upon his plans, he sent them home, and he made bold to say that all and each of them were endorsed and approved at home with but trivial alterations. Let him compare the confidence he then exhibited with that displayed by the persons now subverting the constitution. Let him look on the Opposition benches, and he saw men whom any man might be proud to be called colleagues, and who, he ventured to say, would never have landed them into such a position as the present men at the head of Government had done —these men who, after having been buffetted on one cheek turned the other to be buffetted also. He had been taunted about the power placed in the hands of the half-dozen fishing villages, but look what these fishing villages had become how like heroes they had sprung up to the spur, and he appealed to them to look at the roads with which they had rimified the country, often against an armed foe, Look at their great public works—their thriving towns their mountains pierced. Look at more than he could enumerate of industry and enterprise and say, had he unwisely entrusted the people of Wellington, Otago, and Auckland in working out their own destiny. He had been twitted

with having prepared the constitution in a cottage, but he appealed to that same constitution, and would ask them what right had the country been defrauded of by that constitution, though prepared in a cottage. Look what had arisen under it. Look at the hall in which they now stood. Had anything ever proceeded out of that House equal to what had proceeded from the constitution. The treasurer told them he might have repealed the second section of Constitution Act, but ho could inform that hon gentleman that he, Sir George, had issued a proclamation a few years after the passing of the constitution that repealed that section, and yet that Minister offered to introduce a clause into the Abolition Act repealing that section. He thought he then heard a schoolboy speak, but, however, he would accept that offer, and allow it to go down to all time as a stamp of those who made it. Continuing on the illegality of course proposed by Government, he would say what he said before, that the Government having once given the right to the people, they could not take one iota away from them. The hon member for Timaru, in contradiction of this, reminded him of the case of Jamaica, and intimated that he had kept that fact from the House, but he feared that memory and reason had taken flight from the hon member for Timaru. If the Imperial Parliament took away one constitution from Jamaica, it gave them another, one better adapted to the exigencies of their society. Referring to the opinion of the Attorney-General, the present Chief Justice, which the Government sought to fortify their action by, he told the House and the Government that such a spectacle should never have been seen as a Chief Justice addressing a letter to the Minister of Justice beginning " My dear Bowen," or my dear anything else. What he should hare said when asked for hia opinion was, " You have had my opinion as Attorney - General. If you want it as Chief Justice you must get it upon the Bench of Justice in a proper and constitutional way." They were told Parliament always contemplated abolition by its action regarding the Westland Act, but he did not believe that ; and so great was his confidence in courts of justice in this country that he believed they would one day see the AttorneyGeneral giving one opinion and the Chief Justice another totally different. Grave constitutional questions would naturally arise out of a case of that kind, and it would be ruled by judges that the charters of the provinces were charters of liberties. Turning to another phase of the case, he maintained, with all possible deference, that the name of his Excellency should not have been coupled with a measure which was an outrageous breach of the maxim—that the Government should never take away the liberties of the people in the smallest degree. He could not but raise a protest against such an unlawful and unconstitutional proceeding as selling the constitution by the number of hands held up at public meetings for the unlawful bribes held out for the people. Instead of this, why not refer the matter to the Superintendents who were elected by large bodies of the people. Who were those most bent upon carrying this measure but the neglected of the people, such as the Premier of the colony, who stood for the Superintendency of Auckland and had to retire like a snail within his shell. It was the same with the Colonial Treasurer, who also was rejected by that which he would destroy, but which he unconsciously argued so strongly in favor of. Looking round that House he found in it a glorification of the Provincial system. There were men present who would have been great in the annals of any country—men who in the Provincial Councils paid more minute and careful attention to the expenditure than was ever seen in that House. [" No, no."] He said " Yes." Tell him not such a tale, He would ask what had become of £500,000 for purchasing land—where were the particulars regarding that expenditure ? Where were the private est ates amassed, the fees, the rewards. Why he had seen one item alone of ,£98,000 paid for services rendered for sale of debentures. To whom was that paid. Yet the Treasurer had the bad taste to deal with such questions by quoting to the House from a book called " Pig Philosophy," an extract couched in vulgar phrase unworthy of that House. This was a great occasion—the greatest perhaps that ever would be seen in the annals of the country, and he hoped, speaking of that other branch of the Legislature, that if it were true to its duties and allegiance to the Queen, they would never consent to such an illegal and unconstitutional sweeping away of the people's rights. Coming to the financial part ol the scheme, the Treasurer told them there would be a deficiency oti the present year. Two distinct statements regarding revenue had been made, and he could accept what he liked, but the latter he considered the true one, namely, that there was a deficiency. But under the present system of account keeping it was easy to make any surplus you pleased. Charging constabulary cottages, and one thing and [another against loans, enabled them to carry on a surplus from one end to another. It was a deception, he maintained, and it would be found there would be a great deficiency, that in fact the colony was a lump of debt from one end to the other. What must be the result of this ? The colony would soon find that it had been deluded, and that those deluding bribes held out to them would never reach them, because it was not in the funds of the colony to pay it. Had a real politician and able man 'delivered the financial statement, they might have expected a plan showing care and consideration to relieve the burdens of people, but they had more taxes looming out before them. Now, instead of that, they had a perpetration of the monstrous and abhorrent system which now had been going on for years. Look how they proposed to treat the miners, the real pioneers of the colony. In some respects sheep were pioneers too. Well, the Government looked at the miners and others in the same light, as only fit to be shorn, already shorn too closely; He would boldly say that the real meaning of the Government measure was the tyranny of class legislation. He had been accused of endeavouring to create a democracy, but he endeavoured to create a healthy and intelli gent Opposition. Well, look what they had now and what they might have had, had a different course been adopted. Instead of the delusive and fatal course they had been pursuing, they might have had people instead of sheep, of smiling homesteads, happy families, and well cultivated, instead of thousands of acres owned byjone person. Tney might have had a numerous, happy, and contented corn-

munity able to support themselves within themselves without borrowed millions and excessively highly-salaried officials. They preferred with a monkey-like spirit, nf mischief, to destroy what they could not create, to promise what they could not fulfil. Well, it was for these reasons he asked for some delay—a delay reasonable, equitable, and absolutely necessary. Let them but grant this most just request, and they stay the mischief arid the calamitous consequences which must necessarily arise from their present unseemly haste. [Loud applause."]

Sir D. McLean said that not even the most ardent provincialist ever imagined that the provinces were to be permanently provinces, which resulted in the angry contest for power. The Assembly should have defined the powers of the provinces. The colony had been kept in a constant state of conflict through them. They had been told that the Assembly had no power to abolish the provinces, but he said it had the authority of the people. [Loud cheers.] This came with overwhelming force from the country—[loud cheers] — which said that provincial institutions must disappear for local self ■goyernment, when the people will have protection in the management of their own affairs. It was ridiculous to suppose that settlement was created by Sir George Grey's action in framing the Constitution. The natural hardihood and energy of the people of Otago and Canterbury alone had brought about the present results. He admitted that great work had been done by the provinces in the early stages, but when the Assembly took up colonisation the end of the provinces was near. The consolidation of the loans was another great blow, and there was really nothing now for the nine provinces to do. When provinces were in such condition as Auckland admittedly was, it was better for the people that they should cease. Their sweeping away would be the creating of public opinion, which would make itself felt from one end of the colony to the other. He reiterated the statement was a true and correct statement as to the finances of the colony, which Opposition have yet to admit. Was it to be supposed that the people were not consulted. Were public meetings no criterion at all of public feeling. He defended Hon Dr Pollen and said his twenty-five years' devotion to the affairs of the colony deserved more respect. He also referred to Hon Major Atkinson's previous experience as Minister, and as to the Hon C. C. Bowen, though young and new to official life, he gave every promise to make a useful Minister and making his name. Referring to Sir George Grey's references to the Chief Justice, he denied the latter was ever asked to give an opinion. He was going to twist what passed into a communication between the Government and the Chief Justice, with a view to prejudicing possible legal proceedings. With reference to the credit of the colony, nothing would more greatly enhance its stability than the abolition of the provinces, and making it one united colony, and do away with fragmentary divisions for which no necessity existed, and that end was sure to result. The provinces were always regarded by statesmen at home as extended municipalities. The Government proposals were clear and commendable, and did not in any way pander to public sympathies. He was sorry to find an attempt made now to introduce class legislation. The Government proposals recognised no class, but regarded all equally. [Cheers.]

Mr R. Wood, who was received with loud Opposition cheers, would not attempt to follow the two last speakers as to the wisdom of the introduction of the original constitution, as it had nothing to do with the present question. The legality of the course now pursued was not exhausted. It had been treated with extraordinary ability by Sir G. Grey, and in the very opposite manner by the Ministers. Unless they showed that they were acting within the four corners of the constitution, and the Acts which depended upon it, they were simply wasting time. Ministers and their supporters misinterpreted the AttorneyGeneral's opinion. Every member must think, on the face of the Attorney-General's advice, that there was culpable negligence on the part of the Government in not taking his advice. He quoted Mr Gillies' opinion as to the power of the Assembly to deal with the question, and referred to the past attempts to alter the constitution, which attempts were invariably followed by legislation to set at rest the doubts which each attempt called into existence. Now, more than ever, it would be found that such doubts existed. The Government proposals were bribes for the support of the centres of population, at the expense of the country. On the question of abolition, pure and simple, his duty was very clear. If in the smallest degree the Bill represented his views, it was only duty for him to vote for abolition, but its finance so largely mixed up with the finances of the colony, and had so little connection with abolition that he must vote against it. It must be admitted by the public at large and the House, that the provinces had totally failed to carry on the original intention. If they wanted to find financial conditions which were a scandal to the country, they need not go to Auckland. They would find that nearer home. Exactly the opposite was the case in Auckland—a good man struggling with adversity. It was admitted that there was for a few months a little derangement of Auckland finances owing to the Superintendent's death. The Auckland Government after the interregnum astonished the people by telling them the truth, and drew in the reins and resisted all pressure, and now what was the case—actually a credit at the Bank. The Colonial Treasurer knew nothing about it except from the newspapers. Was a province to be held up as a scandal when it had drawn in its finances, cut its coat according to its cloth, and acted like an honest man should act. Suppose the province had been unable to pay its way, whose fault was it? The fault was the Assembly's, in reducing its customs revenue first from five-eighths, then to threeeighths, then to a capitation grant, which was gradually reduced to fifteen shillings. He told the Southern members if they allowed this Bill to pass at once, and allowed the Government of this country to get their hands upon their land fund, as surely as Auckland's share of the Customs Revenue had vanished, so sure would the land fund be swept into the maelstrom of colonial finance. By the Abolition Bill, they abolished nothing but Provincial Councils. Why not vote on the estimates subsidies to Road Boards and Municipalities, and leave it till next year, when all {doubts might be settled as to the question of abolition. [Mr Wood was still speaking at 10 p.m.J