GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Globe, Volume IV, Issue 370, 19 August 1875, Page 2

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

[By Electric Telegraph.] {From a correspondent of the Press ) LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Tuesday, August 17.. The Speaker took the chair at the usual hour. The Hon Mr Hart introduced a motion

j with reference to what had been said regarding the Council. He said he had been prompted to introduce the motion by the aspersions frequently thrown on the Council, when they from a sense of duty threw out Bills which had been sent up to them from the Lower House. As an instance he would quote a passage from a speech delivered by a prominent statesman in the northern capital of the colony, to the effect “ that a Bill, after it had been passed by the Lower House, was thrown out by the Council,” at the same time impugning motives to the Council in so doing. Not a single fact could sustain the inuendo contained in that statement. The class of Bills in the treatment of which the course pursued by the Legislature might be open to misrepresentation were local or private Bills, but which by the indulgence of Parliament were considered as public Bills. These Bills were treated as public Bills to save the parties interested from incurring the heavy fees incidental to private Bills. In these and similar cases the Council should insist on the production of evidence to show that such Bills did not violate any public or private right, and he would advise the Council to lay down standing orders to set forth principles which should guide parties concerned in passing such Bills. A sample list of the Bills, showing how altered or disposed of, would clear the Council from any aspersions. On the suggestion of the Hon Mr Mantell the motion was withdrawn. Wednesday, August 18. The Speaker look the chair at the usual hour. QUESTIONS, (1) Mr Mervyn asked if it was intended that the goldfields revenue should be locally expended, (2) Mr Wales asked what action, if any, had been taken towards appointing a Surveyor General or Chief Commissioner of surveys for the colony ; or if it was intended to make such an appointment. (3) Mr Steward asked what was the precise nature of the instructions forwarded to the Agent-General with reference to direct immigration to Oamaru. In answer to questions, Ministers said—(l) That it was the intention of the Government that the goldfields revenue should be expended locally. (2) That the Government had on several occasions considered the matter of appointing a Surveyor-General, but nothing had been done at the present time. They had formed no decision; but if they could find a suitable man in the colony, the Government would have no hesitation in appointing him. (3) That instructions had been given to the Agent-General to send to Oamaru onefifth of the immigrants forwarded to Otago during the year. BILLS INTRODUCED. Leave to introduce the following Bills was given, and the Bills read a first time;—Mr Andrew’s Bill to amend the Wellington Special Settlement Act, 1871; Mr Bunny’s Bill to remove doubts as to tolls to be collected and taken at tollgates in the Province of Wellington; Mr Stafford’s Bill to authorise the Council of the Borough of Timaru to raise money for the purpose of constructing waterworks for the supply of the borough with water; Hon B, Richardson’s Bill to enable private companies to construct branch and other railways; Mr Reynolds’ Electric Telegraph Bill. THE WAIKATO LAND SALE. Sir D. McLean explained when the Government last night saw the Opposition talking against time, they did not feel themselves called on to reply to the questions put by Sir G. Grey ; but so far from desiring to burke the enquiry, as alleged last night, they courted the fullest enquiry. The Government was ready to give tbe member for Auckland West the fullest opportunity of moving that a committee be called for, re the sale of the Waikato lands, on the understanding that there should he ho debate, because the Government felt bound to insist, after what had happened, that there should be no interruption of the Abolition debate. Mr Reid objected to a Minister speaking of the Opposition as having talked against time. The course was altogether without precedent. Sir G. Grey in refusing to accept the offer, said the Government had shown no disposition to meet the inquiry or give information. ABOLITION DEBATE. Mr Reid resumed the Abolition debate, and said the effect of the Bill was centralising in its tendencies. He objected entirely to the people of the different localities being prevented from having the disposal of their own revenues. The proposal was not local self-government, which they had at the present time in the fullest sense of the term. The provinces possessed all those powers, without being dependent on the central Government for even the smallest matters connected with local affairs. The Bill was one of the greatest mistakes ever committed. It was a delusion, and an endeavor to bribe the people. He most strongly objected to the money being filtered through the Assembly, because if it once got there very little would be received by the localities in which it was raised. He pointed out that the land estate of Otago had been sacrificed by the late Treasurer, therefore there was more danger of it being sacrificed when it came to be administered by the Colonial Government. The endowment of shires and local councils was most injurious. He looked in vain for a precedent—[Hon Major ATKlNSON—“Victoria”] —but iu Victoria the districts paid into the consolidated revenue £870,C00, and were limited as to the receipts from it to £390,000. Last year they received back £251,000, Therefore there was no analogy between that and this proposal to give moneys from the customs revenue, which was always kept high as an excuse for the payment of these subsidies. The people might be misled now, but when depression came, they would not submit to their money being taken out of their pockets until it was really required, and not to be simply returned for expenditure in large districts. He showed tbat, in Otago, there was now in operation the system of Shire Councils, more liberal than the present, insomuch as it provided 20 per cent of the land fund to the districts, yet not one district, he was persuaded, would come under that system, because he was satisfied that it was impossible to get a more economical administration than by Provincial Governments. He quoted figures to show that the Bill would injuriously affect Otago. Those members who ridiculed the Provincial Councils, generally were those who repeatedly but in vain endeavoured to get elected to

those bodies. He considered that a reform of the Upper House was needed, so as to make the membership for seven years. He made a strong appeal to the Upper Chamber to re] 6 ?* the Bill. He would oppose the second reading, and if that was carried, would endeavour to amend the Bill in committee to suit his views, but would oppose the third reading until the people had had an opportunity of expressing an opinion in reference to it. [Opposition cheers.] Sir Oracropt Wilson assured the member for Taieri that in voting for the Bill he (Sir C. Wilson) did so with all honesty of purpose and sincerity, and not by disappointment. The member for Taieri seemed to think of himself and family first, next of the province of Otago, and lastly of the colony. With himself the feeling was quite the reverse. He was greatly pained at the course the hon member for Auckland West and his friends had adopted yesterday, which if continued would make many members in the House irritated to the degree that they would forget the hou member’s former services, and he would be treated to the roughest language the forms of Parliament allowed. He defended the Upper House from Sir G. Grey s attack ve the land legislation, showing that the Otago members in the Lower House themselves were to blame for the present state of their land laws. He also defended the member for Timaru from the charges of, having deserted his party. Only a man acquainted with politics knew that there were sometimes circumstances, when it was impossible that any honest man could lead the Opposition. [Ministerial cheers.] The Government got matters into such a mess that no honest man could undertake to put them straight. [Opposition cheers.] Thu Government might have incurred obligatious without knowing how to meet them, uncertain whether they would be able to float their loans. Was it wrong that a man should turn round and say, “ it is not fair for me to lead an Opposition when I am not prepared to take office if the Government are turned off those benches.” He did not care who objected, but that was sound and honest reasoning; if the member for Timaru acted under that impulse, he was perfectly justified. Other members had refused to take office with Sir Julius Vogel because of the fear of the misery and confusion which would result, if eventually the scheme would have to be wound up. The abolition debate was continued from 7.30 till midnight without interruption. Mr Rolleston spoke a little over an hour with much hesitation, and very dolefully followed by Hon G. C. Bowen, who spoke well and with remarkable vigor. His allusion to the House shortly being in possession of an authority higher than the law officers of the Crown as to the power of the Assembly to deal with the question, is understood to refer to a telegram sent to Sir J. Vogel to obtain the opinion of the English Crown law officers. Mr Ballance, editor of the Wanganui Hevuld , and Hon W. Fox’s successor, spoke one and a half hours, making by far the best speech during the debate. It was closely reasoned and full of telling points, and its conclusion was warmly cheered from all sides of the House. He showed the extreme change undergone in the opinions of Messrs Wood, Fitzherbert, and Bunny, and demonstrated how the latter’s administration of the affairs of Wellington Province had injuriously affected’ the interests of the outlying districts, and the informal way in which the effects of the financial part of the Bill was treated by the Opposition. At 11.30 Mr Reid moved the adjournment of the debate, which was negatived. Mr Webb followed with a weak speech. Sir'G. Grey next moved the adjournment of the House, which the Government resisted. Mr T. Kelly called upon the Government to sit till three each morning. Mr Pyke called the Opposition a tyrannical minority, whose only object was delay, and advised the Government to set in permanence till the motion was disposed of. Mr Murray in the course of his speech said it was all very well for members to spend their time in Bellamy’s, for which, and other statements, he received a dressing down from Mr Stafford. A most irregular and acrimonious discussion followed. Mr Rolleston fiercely told Mr Stafford that the less he talked about patriotism the belter, after his action in 1872, and charged the Government with having packed the majority, which provoked loud calls of “Chair.” Mr E. B. Parker denied he was packed. Mr Wood', in turn, attacked Mr Stafford, Mr Pyke and Mr Mervyn rising to order; Mr Stafford remarking he would have opportunities of referring to Mr Wood’s conduct since 1872. Sir G; Grey and Mr Fitzherbert charged the Government with causing surprises, and attempting to break through the rules wholesale. Hon Major Atkinson argued that the Government had shown the utmost forbearance, and met the Opposition at the outset. He asked the House to recollect that the Opposition promised that if at the outset time was given them they would go .straight on to the 'consideration of the Bill to a decision, and how the promise had been kept. Mr Fitzherbert announced that the Opposition would use every means of defeating the passage of the Bill. Mr Buck land promised to support the Government on this question, because he believed the Bill necessary, though opposed to them on other questions. If the Opposition intended to try and mould a good Bill, let there be plenty of discussion; but if delay was simply intended, he advised the Government to abstain from talking and vote. If, as Sir George Grey put, it was proved that the hares were going to double at every turn, it became the dogs to grab them when they could. Mr Sheehan, one of the Opposition whips, next talked an hour against time, Mr Reid having previously adopted a similar line. Sir George Grey, at 2.35, moved an adjournment of the debate, which was negatived by 34 against 12. Amendments after amendments were proposed with a like result, till, at 3.60, the Opposition gave way. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. [Per Press Agency.] Wellington, August 19. At the evening sitting, Sir Oracboft Wilson reopened the debate. He said that years ago he was convinced of the evil of provincial servants holding seats in this House ; and he made attempts to prevent their doing so, but unsuccessfully. In his views all economy was impossible while Provincial Councils prevailed. He believed if the father of lies wished to ruin a man, he would make him stand for the office of Superintendent a second time, such were the effects of the office upon human nature. His vote would be given: for the Bill on disinterested grounds. He loved the provinces, and Canterbury particularly, but he loved New Zealand better.

Mr CuthbertSON would support the Bill, and the Government in carrying it out during the present session. He said the figures adduced by the Lyttelton Times to show that the Eoad Boards would be worse o 3 were entirely fallacious. They were not there to discuss whether General or Provincial Governments had made the most mistakes. He denied the power of any one to prove that the province of Otago would be worse off under the provisions of the Bill than now, He referred to the sale of the Moa Flat, which ho maintained was made without the cognisance of the people and secretly, for 14s 7d per acre, when the public could not have purchased it under £1 per acre. Such a sale was a great loss to the colony. The bargain was only concluded because the province was in extremis* He could enumerate many similar instances, but who committed faults was not the question. It was—were they to allow, two distinct systems of Government, and two distinct systems of finance to continue, rendering the Government of the colony unintelligible, and cumbrous, and eventually disastrous to the finances of the colony. The perplexity of their creditors _ was also an important point to be considered. How could they ever get a clear idea of then resources and security, amid such confusion. He took issue on the assertion that political feeling would die out by abolition. On the contrary, political feeling was only now awakening. Nothing would conduce to it 'so much as to bring the taxed face to face with the taxing power. If the General Government had told the Provincial Governments they would give as much money as they liked, upon condition the latter raised one third themselves, this would have created political life, and checked the extravagance of Provincial Councils and saved millions. He detailed several instances to show how the conflict of opinion between General and Provincial Governments often led to waste, and damage to the public interest. The Provincialists said the time was inopportune, but this was always the case to those interested in the other side. He was convinced that whether he was returned or not next session, electors would not send back to the House ten men for the present Opposition. This cry of appealing to the country was only an appeal for a longer lease of life to Provincial Governments He hoped the Government would be warned and render such a thing impossible, and not be intimidated by the threat of the Opposition to resist to the death (as it had been said), and plunge the colony in confusion, because they alleged a legal doubt as to the power of Assembly. He called Sir G. Grey’s attention to a dispatch he sent home with regard to passing a declaratory act re Westland. In conclusion, he said they were now engaged in removing a blot in the Constitution, and laying down a foundation which would broaden down from precedent to precedent, and eventually make New Zealand the foremost ol the Australasian group. Mr Takamoana said the Maoris were not sufficiently represented, and if not more than four were to be in the next Parliament he should advise his people to send none. Leave the pakeha Council to the pakeha alone. He did not understand this quarrel between the General and Provincial Governments. Mr Steward said his constituents were in entire accord with him. His district was a lamentable instance of Provincial mismanagement, With one of the finest districts in the colony, up to 1868 scarcely one mile of metalled road had been made. Ever since that time the dissatisfaction with Provincialism had increased, although the province had been treated better of late years, it did get for public works half what it contributed in revenue, and he believed the district had contributed about a quarter of a million, for which it never received anything. He ridiculed the idea of nine petty parliaments being necessary to govern three hundred thousand people. There mutt be a waste of force and money, as impecunious provinces must be helped. Why lead them through an intermediate body? Why not directly? The hon gentleman argued that the voice of the country favored abolition and looked for it, and that the duty of the Government was to go on regardless of all threats. Had the question been opposed to the choice of the people, the table of the House would this session have groaned with petitions against the change, but not one came, As there would be an immense amount of work before the House in codifying the immense mass of unintelligible Provincial laws, there was no time to be lost. Two courses only were open. Either make nine little parliaments and increase their present powers, or make one united colony with one supreme Government. Mr Von der Heyde deprecated interfering with so sacred a thing as the constitution without the unmistakeable sanction of the people. Sudden changes in legislation were bad. If the House had such power as was alleged, what was to prevent it making the duration of Parliament ten years instead of five. It was a pity the leading men on each side were not allowed to ventilate the matter fully, and then take a division, if the House could make these radical changes it could also revoke compacts made twenty years ago. He was painfully aware that Auckland did not occupy the same enviable positition as the Southern Provinces, though it was hard to see why she should not. He, however, stood pledged to use his utmost endeavour to secure her right. He would support the second reading of the Bill, but beyond that he would not go. Mr McGilliveay supported the Bill, and made a long speech to show the needlessness of provincial institutions, and the mischievous effects traceable to them. It was a great pity for the colony they ever existed, for they had retarded her progress very much ; the sooner they were abolished the better for its credit at home. Mr Beeves moved the adjournment of the debate, and Sir I). McLean moved that the debate be resumed at 2.30 to-day. The House adjourned at 12.20.