GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Globe, Volume IV, Issue 382, 2 September 1875, Page 2

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

[By Electric Telegraph.] (From a correspondent of the Press.) HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Tuesday, August 31. On the House resuming at 7.30. SECOND READINGS. The following Bills were read a second time : —Timaru Corporation Waterworks, Highways Boards Empowering, Electric Telegraphs, Ann Hood Grant, and Nelson City Loans Bill. MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS AMENDMENT. On the second reading of the Municipal Corporations Act Amendment Bill, Mr Harrison gave notice of his intention to move the insertion of a clause, allowing municipalities to rate up to fourpence in the £, for fire protection purposes. Mr Stout suggested only one vote should be allowed to each ratepayer for the Mayoral election, instead of one vote in each ward as now. Hon E. Richardson promised to take the suggestion into consideration. BRANCH RAILWAY BILL. Hon E. Richardson moved the second reading of the Private Company's Branch Railways Bill. Mr Macandrew would not oppose the second reading, as it was a Government measure, and to do so would be too much like insanely beating the air, but he could not refrain from expressing the opinion that the Bill would, if passed, have the effsct of putting a stop to the construction of railways by private companies. In his opinion the title of the Bill should have been " To discourage private companies from railway enterprise." It was one instance more of that class legislation which had for its object the placing of increased power in the hands of the Government, or in other words in the hands of Ministers. Mr Shepherd thought the Bill was, if anything, too liberal. Mr Siieehan would support the Bill in so far as he approved of the principle of encouraging private enterprise, but he objected to it being patched up with Imperial law. He also objected to the clause giving power to appropriate reserve ground, but the reserves should be placed on the same footing as private property. Mr Fitzherbert opposed the Hill, which he said meddled too much with practical working. He especially referred to clause 13 giving power to the Governor from time to time to alter and revoke the regulations. Mr J. E. Brown supported the Bill. Mr Bradshaw was of opinion that the Bill was calculated to discourage enterprise.

g Mr Fyke looked on the Bill as conferrin a boon, and spoke at some length in sup» porting it.

Mr Stout apprehended the Bill empowered the Government of the day to give a monopoly how and when they pleased, which, he contended, was a very dangerous power to place in the hands of any Ministry. Mr Reid concurred with the remarks of the member for Caversham. The Bill placed too much power in the hands of the Minister for Railways, and it was thought imminently probable that the present Minister would shortly be replaced by another. They might have Ministers there with very strong prejudices. He should oppose the Bill. Mr Kelly did not apprehend any disastrous effects from the exercise of the powers vested in Ministers. Mr Pearce approved of the controlling power of the Bill, but with regard to its general terms, was of opinion it might be largely improved in committee. Hon E. Richardson was gratified at the support the Bill had received, having expected larger opposition. He then referred to the objections raised, and said as to clause 13, that he should be quite willing to have a maximum rate fixed lor tolls and charges. On the question being declared carried on voices, Mr Stout demanded a division, when the second reading was carried by 43 to 12. debtors and creditors bill. Hon C. C. Bowen moved the second reading of the Debtors and Creditors Bill, and gave a brief outline of its provisions. If the second reading passed, and the Bill went into committee, there were many hon members who would be able to render valuable assistance in considering the Bill. Mr Sheehan moved the adjournment of the debate, on the ground that members had not sufficient acquaintance with its provisions to permit of them coming to a conclusion as to its merits. Hon C, 0. Bowen agreed to this course. Mr Stout suggested that the Bill should be referred to a small committee of mercantile gentlemen. The Bill appeared to be carefully drawn, but there was one point in it with which he disagreed, namely, regarding the summoning of a meeting of creditors, which was always a source of delay. He maintained that when a man was unable to pay his debts his estate should be at once vested in some trustee, who should have power to step in and take possession. Mr Luckie differed from the hon member for Caversham. One of the defects of the Bill was the calling into existence of legal machinery. Mr Hunter could see no necessity for delaying the consideration of the Bill, since it was generally admitted that a change in the law was necessary. After some further discussion the debate was adjourned till to-morrow, FRAUDULENT DEBTORS' BILL. The Hon C. C. Bowen would consent to the postponement of this Bill, which was supplementary to the Bill preceding. Mr Pyke would suggest that whenever the Bill should be considered, the Minister of Justice should consent to the Bill being made to operate in the same way as the ordinary criminal law of the country, that was that the onus of proof should be on the accuser and not on the accused. The consideration of the Bill was then postponed.

Tuesday, September Ist. The Speaker took the chair at 2.30 p.ra. PRIVILEGE. Mr Rolleston referred to the question of privilege raised yesterday, aud asked if it was competent for him to move a motion to the effect that it was inconsistent with the independence of Parliament that there should be agreements or transactions between the Government and members of the Legislature, involving the latter in pecuniary benefit, whether present or prospective, without the express sanction of the Legislature ; and whereas the allegations which had been made in the papers laid on the table, apparently showed that certain members of the Legislature have an interest in such agreements, it is expedient that a select committee should be appointed to inquire into and report upon the whole circumstances, and as to how far the persona interested came under the Disqualification Act; the committee to report within one month. The Speaker—The hon member for Avon is in order in so moving. Mr Rolleston said his reason for taking the present course was that after what occurred yesterday, he thought the question was left in an unsatisfactory position, and he felt himself responsible in a large measure for the position in which the question now stood. His own view was that the Government as leading the House should have moved for the committee to enquire into the matter. He proceeded to state his grounds for asking a committee, and referred first to the candid statement on the previous occasion of the member for Franklin, that he had been engaged in three specific transactions with the Government, and was under an agreement with the Government, that in the event of gold being found on certain lands he parted with to the Government, he would be entitled to a reward for the discoveries of gold. He next referred to the agreement between the Government and a company of capitalists, including Messrs Etudholme, Taylor, and Williamson, and contended that the terms of these agreements were sufficiently extraordinary to bring the members interested within the terms of [the Disqualification Act. The company had no claim to land either in law or equity, because the title to the land bad never been extinguished, and the Government could if they pleased intercept them obtaining the land The Piako-Waikato swamp transaction was, according to the Native Minister's admission, a clear case of the members of the Legislature trafficking in land. He hoped the other House would, on seeing the action of this House, take action in a similar direction.

Sir D. McLean thought there had already been a sufficiently clear intimation that the Government had taken immediate steps to take the advice of the Crown law officers, which was not yet final. The member for Avon seemed very unhappy in stating his reason for pressing for the immediate answer till the Solicitor General gave his final opinion. If the member for Avon desired a committee the Government was quite willing to grant him one, but so far as he was at present aware in reference to the member for Franklin, one was not required. The statement that he had any interest, prospective or immediate, in the goldfield, was quits unfounded. It was a cleat and

distinct (concession of land to the Government. With reference to the other transactions referred to, he imagined the member for Avon knew very little about the history of the North Island, when he rushed into the idea that the Government entered into illegal transactions with members of the Legislature. That member did not consider that under the circumstances of the country, they were obliged to make compromises the best they could with people who had obtained cessions of territory from the natives. In the particular instance in which the late member for Kaiapoi was affected, he had for six years previously taken up land, and put stock upon it. The Government stepped in and made arrangements by which the land suitable for farming had been secured for the purposes of settlement. When they saw large capitalists endeavoring to secure the best portions of the North Island, the GoTernment stepped in, regardless of trouble and opposition, and determined as far as they could to secure what they could for settlement. He did not care whether it was legal or not, so long as it was just or equitable, and resulted in securing to the colony an estate for the purposes of settlement. He hoped the member for Avon was satisfied that the Government were desirous of the fullest inquiry into each and every case. Mr T. Kelly said the only remedy was the Government stopping all land transactions in the North island. Mr SHEEHAK said it was well known that Mr Studholme was only taken into the affair i as a backbone, to enable others to carry it through. Under the Act of 1873 the Government could have stopped land being put through the Land Court, or under the Public Works and Immigration Act have proclaimed the lands; the Government should do away with the direct purchase system. Negotiating for native lands had now become a trade, on the chance of afterwards securing the lands, or getting compensation from the Assembly. He hoped the Government would even now take the steps he had suggested. Mr Rolleston, in reply, said there would never be a just Government so long as the Government broke the law. Clearly large capitalists had the ear of the Government, and he did not place the slightest reliance on the Ministerial statement about their anxiety to obtain lands for settlement, when he had in his mind the Waikato and Piako transaction. The motion was agreed to. SURVEYOR GENERAL. Mr Wales moved, " That, in the opinion of this House, it would be impolitic and injurious to the interests of the country to appoint a person as Surveyor-General for New Zealand who has not had experience in this colony as a surveyor." The Hon Major Atkinson replied he was not aware how the impression had got abroad that the Government were desirous of appointing as Surveyor-General some person other than those resident in the colony. A few days ago he had announced, when making an appointment of the sort, that the Government would consider the claims of persons at present employed in the provincial surveys in the colony. If the Government was of opinion that there were among such persons those duly qualified to fill the post, they would have the first claim, but it was quite out of the question that the Government shou'd appoint this or that person. If the member for Dunedin desired the appointment of any particular person, he should put a notice upon the paper, but even such resolution would not compel the Government to appoint that person. The hands of the Government should not be tied. Admittedly there were only two or three, at the outside four, persons in the colony qualified to fill the office, and if one refused to accept or another died before any appointment was made what would be their position ? The appointment must rest either with the Government or with the House. Both could not make it. The hon gentleman should be content with the Government's assurance and withdraw the motion ; but if pressed he would propose an addition—" Provided a gentleman duly qualified can be found with colonial references." Sir G. Grey suggested that the motion should be withdrawn if the Government gave assurance that in the event of a vacancy they would, if they found they could do so in justice to the public services, recognise the talent to be found in the colony. Hon Major Atkinson—That is the view the Government always have taken so far as I know. At all events they will do so. Mr Pyke protested against the proposal to impose a military surveyor on the colony, andcondemned the triangulation surveys. He objected entirely to importing men to educate them up to their duties at the expense of the colony. It was time a stand was taken against this system. What was the meaning of the inspector of surveys? was it a shadow, or was the appointment really made? -...., Hon Major Atkinson—l answer distinctly no appointment has been made, and the Government has given no pledge to anybody. Mr Pyke then inquired who was Inspector of Surveys, his duties and functions. Mr Murray proposed as an amendment—- " That in making the appointment of Sur-veyor-General, the merit of all applicants being equal, the Government should give the preference to those who have had experience in the colony as surveyors." Sir D. McLean explained that the officer alluded to by Mr Pyke was inspector of native lands and confiscated lands in the North ' e ■ ■ .u I. Mr Macandrew was of opinion that there were as competent men in the colony as could be got out of it. Mr Fitzherbert agreed in making the appointment contemplated, and in allowing the Government the fullest liberty in choosing a competent person. He also approved of the Government appointing Major Palmer to report upon the surveys of the colony, and he condemned those speakers who spoke lightly of his abilities and work, but the Government had acted most unwisely in holding out to Major Palmer hopes that the appointment of Surveyor-General would be offered to him. (No.) Would then the Government say the offer was never made? Hon Major Atkinson—l say it was not made. Mr Fitzherbert—That there were no negotiations in that direction ? Hon Major Atkinson—No. Mr Fitzherbert —No inducements held out. Hon Major Atkinson—None. Mr Fitzherbert —No conversation upon the subject? Hon Major Atkinson—None, so far as 1 know. Mr Fitzherbert—Th u ts * tell the

hon member he knows very little. [Laughter,] I state hopes were held out to Major Palmer —■ Hon Major Atkinson—l have spoken to my colleagues, and each of them say no such conversation took place, and no hopes were held out. Mr FITZHERBERT said, notwithstanding what fell from the Tr< asurer, so far as his information was concerned, he could state quite the reverse, which was as strong a statement as he could make. It was too much for him to take in, that no conversation took place. He could understand no appointment being made, but he knew hopes had been held out to Major Palmer. A conversation had taken place on the subject, which had been considered pro and con in a great many ways. Figures had been gone into, together with Major Palmer's position and supposed duration of appointment. He repeated his impression was totally at variance with the Ministers. He was not such a Protectionist as some members, because he believed in getting the best article where he could ; but the great evil into which they were falling, and it had alraoft become a habit, was of disregarding the claims of those around them, except in the matter of government, and in making appointments from outside. They would obtain better administration of the surveys by having a Surveyor-General for the North Island, but there was no necessity for a Surveyor-General for the colony, with a deputy in each island. The introduction of a number of English officers would lead to the upsat of the present system, portions of which were as near perfect as could be, and give place to a very indefinite system. Mr Stafford, referring to the member for Hutt's refusal to accept the conclusive denial of Ministers, remarked that the country must have sunk into a very low position when Ministers' statements of positive facts were doubted. He went on to say

he knew Major Palmer personally, and seeing the telegraphic report in the papers that the offer of the Surveyor-Generalship was to be made to him, he asked Major Palmer a few days before he left the colony if it was true. Major Palmer replied most decidedly he had no offer or communication with the Ministry on the subject ; that as an officer of the Imperial service, if such an offer were made to him in the colony, he could not accept it here, as he would have to consider his future position before deciding. This statement was made without the slightest reservation. With reference to the subject itself, he entirely agreed with the member for Hutt that the Government must not be restricted in its choice, but at the same time he thought it would be a wise act on the part of the Government, to encourage local talent as largely as possible, by giving to residents in the colony offers of lucrative appointments, if properly qualified persons were to be found in the colony. The question could not be overlooked that there was a great ascertained and admitted incorrectness in a large portion of the surveys of the colony, which must be cured with great care. The House had not the right to say that it was the duty of the Government to cure those inaccuracies, and yet attempt to limit their selection. Mr Reid strongly urged the claims of Mr Thomson, chief surveyor of Otago. Mr READER Wood said it was a false impression that the appointment of a surveyorgeneral of high attainments would prevent

the inaccurate surveys now in vogue, it they had an isolated system of surveys, no matter how qualified the surveyor-general and his assistants, and no matter how correct the surveys in different parts of the country were, there must be errors, trilling at the commencement, which must necessarily accumulate, and the surveys would not fit in. The only remedy was a trigonometrical survey, which would be exceeding expensive.

WELLINGTON SPECIAL SETTLEMENTS. Mr ANDREW moved —" That there be laid before the House copies, if in possession oi his Excellency's Government, of all letters written by his Honor the Superintendent of Wellington to the Agent-General ot the Colony, in January, 1872, on the subject of the Wellington Special Settlements Act, 1871, and also a copy of the reply of the Agent-General to the same, wrilten in March, 1872." The motion was carried. ADVANCES FOR PURCHASE OP LANDS. Mr ANDREW moved —" That there be laid before the House a return showing all the amounts advanced by the Colonial Treasurer during the past year, for the purpose of enabling the Provincial Secretary of Wellington, or of other provinces, to compete with Dr Buller and other individuals in the purchase of Crown lands." Carried. AUCKLAND PROVINCIAL COUNCIL. Mr Sheehan moved —" That there be laid before the House a copy of the resolutions passed by the Auckland Provincial Council, in possession of the General Government during the last session, in reference to the abolition of provinces, and to the control of the police force." Carried. LAND PURCHASES. Mr Buckland moved—" That a return be laid before the House containing a list of all members of the General Assembly, who during the last five years have sold or transferred, or contracted to sell or transfer any property real or personal to the Crown, or to any person on behalf of the Crown, or to the Colonial Government, for railway or other purposes, specifying in each case the nature and quantity of the property, with the date of the contract, the date of the deed ,of completion, and a precis of the covenants contained or implied ; also a return of all the members of the General Assembly who during the last five years have made any contracts with the Crown or Government other than as above mentioned, specifying the nature of the contract, with the date when entered into, and whether completed or still pending." Fie said he was convinced when the return was presented that he would be applauded instead of censured. He agreed that the House should be purged of anything approaching to a tendency on the part of the Government of buying or over-awing members. The motion was carried. Mr Rolleston's committee consists of Hon Major Atkinson, Messrs Parker, Johnson, Sir G. Grey, Messrs Stout, Curtis and liollcston. IM MIG RAT lON P A Pl 5 US. [By Telegraph.] (From a correspondent of the Press.') Further papers relating to immigration have been presented. Sir J. Vogel intimates to the Agent-General that his instructions of i the 30th of April are not withdrawn, except

so far as they relate to the discontinuance of free immigration. The instructions of the Government must be implicitly obeyed. He would have to deduct from the numbers authorised by telegram those shipped since the end of April, and in distributing the balance the Agent-General should fix the complement for each port in accordance with Government instructions, since his engagements will lea-1 to the completion of a large portion of the order by the end of July. He is to use his own discretion as to the division of the remainder. The last portion of the period is that over which he might with the greatest advantage reduce the shipments, but having regard to the total authorised, he will have to make a considerable reduc-

tion during the earlier months also' Sir J. Vogel advises making a fresh charter party for the shipment of immigrants with the New Zealand Company and Shaw, Saville, and Co. The result of the negotiations was, that the Shipping Company agreed to give Shaw, Saville, and Co part of the business. Part oi the London - and Otago business has been left free for a possible arrangement with Messrs Galbraith (Albion line), as well as the Glasgow business. The agreement is to pay £l6 per adult, or 30s in excess of the present rate. Mr Vogel's opinion is that the company has only moderately estimated the additional cost of the requirements under the new charter. The additional 30s per adult does not correspondingly increase the co:t to the colony, because since the Government ordered in October, 1874, an increased dietary scale, hitherto borne by the Agent-General'd department, the average cost to the colony has been £l6 Is s£d per adult. The advantages of the new system are a continuance of the increased dietary scale, increased space for immigrants, extra space of five feet for luggage, improved dietary for infants, which, as infants are not charged for, has to be averaged over the total number of adults, as the cost to the company from the payment of the moiety of the passage money in the colony; besides these, a saving of 2s 6d per ton for freight on all cargo; larger power of enforcing penalties, and more substantial payment for demurrage, and larger powers to prevent objectionable cargo. The rate for immigrants to Hawkes Bay and Bluff are now to be the same as to ordinary ports; therefore there is actually a saving to Hawkes Bay and Bluff of £2 per head. The duration of the charter party is till the end cf April, 1876. First-class passengers are allowed to travel in emigrant ships. These arrangements mot with the Agent-General's approval, whose cordial co-operation Sir J. Vogel acknowledges.