GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Globe, Volume IV, Issue 396, 18 September 1875, Page 2

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

[Per Press Agency.] {From a correspondent of the Press.} LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Friday, September 17. The Speaker took the chair at the usual hour. BILL PASSED. The Napier Gas Works Bill was read a third time and passed. TIMBER. Hon Mr Waterhouse asked for the production of correspondence relating to the timber upon land affected by the revocation of the proclamations in accordance with section 2 of the Immigration and Public Works Act. Hon Dr Pollen had no objection, but took occasion to reply to the accusation made against him in the House of Representatives relative to the operation of the clause mentioned. third readings. The Public Health Act was read a third time. The Electric Telegraph Bill was read a third time. OAMARU GASWORKS BILL. The Oamaru Gasworks Bill was committed and ordered to be further considered on Tuesday, TARANAKI AVASTE LANDS BILL. The Taranaki Waste Lauds Bill was recommitted on the motion of the Hon Mr Robinson, who moved an amendment, which was negatived, .and the Bill was reported to the House. Hon Mr Robinson then moved that the Bill be read a third time that day six months. This was negatived by a large majority, and the Bill read a third time and passed. hood grant bill. The Ann Hood Grant Bill passed through committee.

The Council then adjourned, HOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVES. (From a correspondent of the Press.') Thuusday, September 15th, The House resum' d at 7.30. ABOLITION BILL. Messrs Cuthbertson and Stout withdrew their amendments treating Southland a separate provincial district. Clause 6 was allowed to stand part of the Bill, and the clause was passed. Mr STOUT proposed to amend the clause by providing that tne land should be administered by a Board. Mr Wood suggested that the Government should eliminate all provisions for machinery in the Bill, because next Parliament would be sure to hold a different opinion as to what was desirable. Mr Reid said the lands of the colony should be dealt with by cast iron rules. The clause was passed without amendment. A considerable discussion arose on the paragraph included in Bth clause. The Colonial Treasurer expressed the opinion that the Provincial Governments had been the worst kind of centralism the colony had ever experienced. Sir G. Geey felt excessively hurt at his Treasurer’s remark, that Provincial Govern meuts were the worst form of centralism. The course the Government werepursuingthis session, by pressing on certain measures, was preventing an inquiry into their adminietra-

lion, sucn ns he had brought forward, anr 1 had prevented him from exposing their lotion, which he believed was the worst form of Central Government that ever prevailed within the British Empire. This Central Government had performed acts in reference to the public funds of this colony, and to the public lands of this colony, which had not been surpassed in their im propriety in anything hitherto known in the Empire. His experience had been large in this colony and in other countries, and he declared be had never heard acts so unbecoming of officers of Government, He would tell the committee that there was a case in which there was a claim set up by the prospectors of a goldfield for a claim to which they were entitled. Pending this, the prospectors appealed at the office of the General Government agent, and tendered to him a share in their claim, which was known to be worth at least £2OOO. The General Government agent answered that as a Government officer he could not take it himself. He was then asked if he would allow it to be given to one of his subordinates, but he objected to that, because that person was his relation. The share was then handed to his clerk. That took place in a public office. The person who allowed it was the General Government agent, He (Sir G. Grey) immediately wrote to the General Government, calling attention to .the fact in proper and becoming terms, and he asked that as the Governor’s deputy he should be first in possession of the explanation which he supposed the agent could give. The Government referred the question to the agent, but his (Sir George’s) letter was never answered, and it was only when the papers were laid on the table of the House that he learned that the facts were admitted by the Government agent. There were other cases of the General Government agents acting unjustly and improperly. Yet men who allowed these acts to be done rose and made wrong and shameful accusations against the Provincial Governments. They should to some extent drop this Bill, and allow private members their two days a week to prove the facts which he had stated. He gave it up as a hopeless question. He believed if any member with less experience than himself, and less independent of personal position, had stood up and said what he (Sir George) had. said, he would not have been listened to. He declared solemnly his belief that if he was a member of Government he would walk down the House in the presence of the House and leave it. He would not allow himself to be associated with such a Government, who had squandered public moneys and lands in the way the present Government had. So long as aspersions similar to those that fell from the Treasurer that night were thrown upon Provincial Governments, which had none of the blackness about them of the acts to which he alluded, there would be found one voice in the country that dared to speak out the truth. In fact, many men had told him that they feared to come forward in cases of this kind, because the power possessed by the Government was so arbitrary and despotic. None could doubt it. He spoke under feelings of emotion, but also from a resolution to put an end to such a system. He believed not only in the House but in the country he should find the support required to put an end to that system under whioh Government had exercised a most corrupt influence upon the country. Without fear of contradiction he said it. -[A. VOICE —“ No.”] Who said no? Would the hon member show himself ? He challenged any hon member to stand up in the face of New Zealand and say “ No.” Hon W. Katene stood up amid some laughter to say “ No.” Sir G. Grey said it was an English “ No ” he had heard, but he was glad no English member had had the hardihood to stand up and say “ No.” If any chose to deny what he said, go to the records of the country. He alluded to the travelling expenses drawn by the Postmaster-General, which were greater than those of any ambassador sent out of England, and said, with the wasteful extravagance that went on in every department, ought such further powers to be placed in the hands of the Central Government, He had spoken out boldly what he knew to be true—but the truth, and could be proved as such. Hon C. C. Bowen said the present was no time and place for going into matters which had been introduced by the' member for Auckland West. The Government, on a proper occasion, would be prepared to enter upon the discussion of any question such as that raised by Sir G. Grey, and would be found ready to throw as much light as was possible on any question brought before the House. With respect to what had fallen from the member for Parnell, he might say the Government did not look upon it as likely that this House or committee would produce a perfect thing, or that the next Parliament would reach perfection in their efforts, but he thought they ought to take care that until they were able to perfect their scheme they should have no hiatus which would create inconvenience to the public. Now among many powers vested in Superintendents, there were some functions which must necessarily be vested in some one or other, that the business of the country might be carried on. As his hon colleague the Colonial Treasurer had stated, the Government did not propose to substitute anything in place of provincialism this session, but they did hope that by degrees a proper system of local self-govern-ment would be built up. But there must be some powers which must in the meantime be vested in somebody, and that must be in some Executive body responsible to the House. Therefore, he thought it was necessary that they should provide for the present powers and functions of Superintendents being vested in the Governor, with the understanding that so far as possible they should be delegated to and vested in local bodies. Mr PiOLLESTON thought the remarks of Sir George Grey were justified, because the Colonial Treasurer had cast unnecessary and unmerited censure on the provinces. It would not help business if Ministers received with laughter statements honestly believed in. The Hon Major Atkinson explained that his remark was a perfectly natural one. They were now considering a Bill for the Abolition of the Provinces, and he had simply expressed the opinion which he, in ; common with many others, held, that Provincial Governments were the worst form of i centralism in New Zealand. He denied that 1 the Government had thrown any obstacles ( in the way of enquiries. They would be at | all times ready to meet the hon gentleman, 1 and if he would not introduce those foreign matters into the ordinary business of the i

i louse, ic won id enable them to be considered much sooner, but the hon gentleman seemed ever ready to drag in the question of land transactions whenever he could seize the opportunity. Mr Takamoana said the Abolition of Provinces was directed against the Maori race, Mr Parata defended the Government. Sir G. Grkt replied that the Colonial Treasurer appeared to think the remark he made on Provincial Governments was trifling, and one upon which it was unnecessary for him (Sir George Grey) to comment. He would observe, however, that the hon gentleman spoke as a Minister, and the whole tendency of his observations throughout the session had been to lower provincial administration in the eyes of the country. Continually had his remarks been of the most i offensive character, which had stung him to the quick. Particularly had he adopted this ■ offensive style of speech when alluding to , the Province of Auckland. Now his posi- • tion was this, that not only did the Governi ment speak of provincial administration, but i as it was known by many hon members of i that House, the press of the colony was to . a great extent under Government control. 3 [At this Ministers and others laughed.] f Hon members might laugh, but he could give reasons for what he said. He would ; fearlessly assert that such was the case, 1 He complained of Ithe unfair position 3 of the Government in reference to 1 this matter. The Native Minister had 3 charged him with disloyalty, and one of 3 their hangers-on—the member for Nelson r City (Mr Luckie) —had inserted in his news--9 paper most offensive language regarding his 2 (Sir George’s) loyalty. i The Chairman said the hon member s must withdraw the word “ hanger-on.” j Sir G. Grey would apologise for using the 3 term, if he could find one which would 3 more fittingly express his meaning—--3 Lighter) 3 Mr Luckie denied that he was the hangers on or under the thumb of any Minister. 3 Sir G. Grey had no intention of wounding s the feelings of the hon gentleman. [“ Oh.”] 7 He had not used the word “hanger-on ” in - an offensive sense. By it he meant the hon 1 member was constantly connected with the b Government, and running in and out of 1 Ministers’ rooms. [Laughter.] I Mr Gibbs very much regretted that the r member for Auckland City West should be 3 continuously making charges against the I Government without endeavoring to prove 3 them. He seemed to think it was proper to ) cast aside all the feelings which usually i guided men. He deemed his opponents ) guilty before they were tried. I Mr Wakefield spoke in the same strain, i and said if an investigation into the land I transactions proved that the officer had been i guilty of misconduct, and the Government 1 had shielded the offender, he (Mr Wakefield) would assist in condemning the Gol vernment, but until the charges were i proved, it was unfair to keep nagging at the • Ministry. Mr Pyke thought if these clauses were ■ agreed to they would place a dangerous : • weapon in the hands of the Opposition for | use during the forthcoming elections. [ The amendment was agreed to, and the section struck out. 1 Mr Macandrew then proposed, as an ( amendment—“ That there be handed over ( the education reserves at d the management of I education in Otago to a Board to be herei after appointed.” The wisdom of such a provision must commend itself to all members, but especially to those from Otago, for it was absolutely necessary that the present , machinery in force should be preserved. Every one admitted that the educational system of Otago was a good one, and every one must see that it was desirable to con--1 tinue it. The Hon 0. 0. Bowen said the hon mem- - her must see that the proviso was unnecessary, because there would be no change in the system until next session, and this waa 1 one of those matters which must then be ; dealt with. There was no wish to effect a change in the administration of education in Otago, but to introduce such a clause as this would but encumber the Bill. The Government could not consent to it. Mr Fitzherbert supported the amendment. It was natural that the member for Port Chalmers, who had built up so perfect a system, should desire to so prevent it being swept away amid the confusion that would follow. Hou Major Atkinson said if the Government conceded this they might as well carry the principle further, and add provisos confirming the present system in Wellington and the other provinces. He did not think any good would come of it. On behalf of the Government he disclaimed any intention of interfering this session with education, Mr Macandrew said the proviso would not come into operation till the Act did, and therefore there could be no harm done. It; was well to secure to Otago its educational institutions, and .he was sure the people of Otago would never be satisfied if the management of education was controlled from Wellington. Mr Shepherd supported the amendment, because it would make the measure popular. Mr Stout said when the Government announced their intention of introducing two Bills, one of them dealing with education, he ’had charged them with having again changed front. They now really came down, and said they had no intention of dealing with the education question this session. What faith could there be placed in the solemn declaration of the Government. It was clear to his mind that the Government had never intended to do more than centralise all power in Wellington. They were very good at demolishing, but had not yet risen to a contemplation of building up. Mr Rolleston asked Government to accept the amendment, and make it general. Mi Reid could not see why there should . be any objection to the clause, for it embodied the very views which Government had professed to hold. If the Otago supporters of the Government rejected the proposal they would do it at the peril of their seats. Education would be more effectively and economically administered locally, than from a common centre. Mr Wood supported the amendment. Mr McLean hoped Government would accept the suggestion of the member for Avon. Sir D. Bell urged the Government to accept the proposal, for if there were many things to abolish, there were many institutions to preserve. From the first he had been of opinion that the principal work of the session should be to clear away the political difficulties, so that the future might be devoted to the building-up process. Mr J. 0, Brown supported the amendmeat.

Hon Major Atkinson expressed his willingness, on behalf of the Government, to accept the clause, if made general. He again asserted that the Government had never intended to deal with education this session. The member for Caversham had not acted fairly. The whole position of things had changed, and what was a good and reasonable proposition some days ago it was perfectly reasonable to withdraw now. Mr Curtis supported the general clause. Mr Creighton much regretted the action of the Government. It seemed that most of the benefits supposed to be derived from the abolition of the provinces would now be lost. It would have been far better had Government considered its position with re B ard to the amendments, of which notice had been given, before coming into the House. Certainly all hope of a national scheme of education was at an end. Perhaps the bes thing to do now was to determine how many of the clauses of the Bill were necessary to ■ secure the abolition of the provings carry those, and abandon the remainder. |_ No. J That was the best thing to do, after the course Government had pursued that evening a course which must be unsatisfactory to their party. He had given them a loyal support throughout the session, but he must express his disappointment at their conduct to-night, in giving way on a question which involved such a large principle. Hon Major Atkinson said if the doctrine of the member for Eden was to be accepted, he did not see the use of the House going into committee. The Government had taken up a decided position, but for all that it was the duty of the House to determine what should be done. Both friends and foes all round the House had spoken in favor of the acceptance of the motion if made general, and Government had accepted it. He then proposed that the clauses should be passed as already amended, and a new clause preMr Stout objected, and Mr Pyke called for a division, which resulted in the Hon Major Atkinson’s motion being carried. The numbers were:— Ayes Noes 5 , Mr WOOD proposed that after the words “ performed by,” in line 5, the remaining words of the sentence be excised, for the purpose of the addition of the following words—“ Collector of Customs at principal ports of provincial districts.” The amendment was negatived, and the clause adopted as printed. On clause 10, Hon Major Atkinson moved at the end of the first section, concluding with words “ Her Majesty the Queen,” shall be added the following—“ And for the same purposes and object and subject to the same powers and conditions as are now vested in the Superintendents.” Mr Stout urged that the clause should be postponed till, the further new clause in respect to education was circulated. Mr Dignan supported the suggestion, because punctuation was wanted. As it was now punctuated the clause dealt with the private as well as the public property of Su perintend ents. The words “except as hereinafter provided ” were placed at the beginning of the cl&usc. Mr Beid, in referring to the three new clauses, 28, 29, and 30, which had been circulated during the evening, said the Government were attempting to force upon the Opposition an illiberal interpretation of arrangements come to between the Opposition and the Government. Those new clauses bound the Opposition to agree to Provincial Councils not meeting again, and to no new contracts being entered on ; but 1 he understood it no such arrangement had been made, and he should object to it. Mr Sheehan understood the arrangement to be this, that the Opposition merely withdrew factious opposition, and in return Government conceded that the Act should not be brought into operation till after the close of next session. All other questions were left open. If any other arrangement had been come to the leaders of the Opposition had not communicated it to their followers, and he should not accept such an arrangement unless told that he was bound to it. Mr Eolleston said there seemed to be some misapprehension as the nature of the agreement come to, which was that the Government were to take steps to protect the colonial chest by having power to review contracts entered into. This, he thought, a very necessary provision. Mr Stout should decline to be bound to such an agreement, even if entered into. The Opposition might as well have walked off home. Sir D, McLean said that all the propositions of the Government had been agreed to, with the exception of that with reference to Provincial Councils not meeting again, to which the Opposition leaders had not been disposed to agree. It had been agreed that all payments after a certain period were to be reviewed by the General Government. That was distinctly understood between the parties, and so explicit did it seem that it was not considered desirable to put it in writing. The clause, as amended, was then passed. On clause 11 being moved, Mr Fitzherbert proceeded to give his ideas on the compromise. There had been four proposals submitted by the Government. With regard to the first, there was no doubt about the arrangement. The Act was not to come into force till after the end of the next session. In consideration of this concession the members of the Opposition bound themselves as a party not to offer factious opposition, and to this they would faithfully adhere. With regard to propositions 3 and 4, it was distinctly understood that they were left open questions, especially that referring to the calling together of the Provincial Councils. While members of Opposition knew that the Government could not interfere with the operation of the present Appropriation Acts, they at the same time thought that under the circumstances, abolition having been decided on, it was but right that Government should see that no contracts were entered into except there was sufficient money in the Provincial Treasury to meet the outlay, or unless at least there was a probability of there being money within a short time. These, however, were considered matters of detail, the main question being the withdrawal of factious opposition on the Government engaging not to bring the Act into operation till the conclusion of the next session. For himself, he would at once say that he thought Government had done right in taking proper care that there should be no undue expenditure undertaken by the prowhich might embarrass the colony at

a futuretime. That was exactly the position, and he thought it would be a great pity if these negotiations should be rendered nugatory by any misunderstanding. Hon Major Atkinson concurred fully with what the last speaker said, but added it was distinctly understood that the leaders of the Opposition had bound their party to give effect to all the propositions made by the Government, excepting that relative to the meeting of Provincial Councils. Messrs Btout and Reid reiterated their intention of declining to be bound to such an arrangement, and would prefer to revert to the same position they occupied last week. The former moved progress be reported. Mr Rolleston intimated his approval ot and intention to support the arrangement come to. Mr Montgomery recognised that it was the bounden duty of the Government to protect the revenue. It would not be creditable to the House to split on a question like this. Mr Reid said the proposal had been made at the instance of a single member of the Government, to gratify personal feeling and to prevent a railway being carried out in Otago. He referred to the Minister for Public Works. Hon E. Richardson said he had been told by several members of the House that certain contracts were about being entered into with Otago. He at once acquainted his colleagues of the fact, remembering the arrangement which had been come to, and then sought the support of the Otago members to ascertain as to how far the rumour was correct; and with the intention of reminding him of the nature of the arrangement, he met the member for Taieri, and told him what had been said, and what he considered to be the position of affairs. That was the only action which had been taken. They should have acted in the same manner in regard to any province or any district. [Hear, hear.] Mr Stout said he only wished to be satisfied of this. He was not bound to vote for any particular clause. Mr Fitzherbert repeated that members were not bound to vote on any particular clause, but, as a party, opposition would legally cease —all organised opposition. The existing appropriations had the force of law, and must be expended until they were exhausted. Sir D. McLean also repeated that every member was free to oppose every clause of the Bill if he choose. Mr bTOUT then withdrew his motion. Before the clause was put, Mr Stout pointed out that it implicitly repealed the Crown Redress Act. The clause passed as printed. The House then adjourned. Thursday, September 17, The Speaker took the chair at 2.30. PRIVILEGE. Before the House proceeded to the Orders of the Day, Mr Fitzherbert, as a question of privilege, called attention to the Southern Cross report of a speech delivered by Sir G. Grey in the House on September 2n I, by which it was made to appear that by the Press Agency telegram, the member for Auckland West had been made to say that “ He would assist the people in such a course as that taken against the Mother country by America.” He showed from Hansard that Sir G. Grey said nothing of the kind, and read a memo from the manager of the Press Agency to the effect that the Cross had interpolated the words into the message to it by the Agency. He (Mr Fitzherbert) charged the newspaper referred to with having cast a most foul aspersion on the member for Auckland West, in saying that one who stood prominent among the distinguished men of the colony could be a traitor to his Queen and country. Considerable discussion followed, without any practical result, FIRST READINGS, The following Bills were read a first time : —Maori Representation Act Amendment and Continuance Bill; Otago Harbor Board Empowering Bill; Clutha River Trust Reserves Bill. ABOLITION BILL. The House then went into committee on the Bill. On clause 12, sub-section 2, Mr STOUT objected to the retention of all the words after “ Governor,” in the second line. They should be struck out. The old grounds raised in respect to similar powers of delegation under clause 8, which had been struck out, were gone over by Messrs Stout, Wood, and Brandon. Ministers pointed out that there were certain social functions performed under the Acts and Ordinances by Superintendents, which after abolition must be vested in somebody. Mr Stafford said these delegated powers should be grouped : one portion to the Governor, the second to the Roads and Municipalities, a third to the chairmen of the proposed Boards of Works and the chairmen of Education Boards, but it should be a mere matter of delegation. Powers should be given directly to those bodies. He thought when that was done, a very small group would remain for the Governor to delegate. He would prefer that this matter should not be determined this session. Certain powers that were delegated required careful selection and deliberation as to how they should be allotted. If that selection were exercised without deliberation, it would embarrass the administration of affairs. Mr Wales suggested that all the clauses referring to delegated powers should be postponed until after it was decided whether or not Provincial Councils would again meet. Hon Major Atkinson expressed his wil,’ingness to postpone the clause till he amended it, so as to make the intention of the Government clearer, but he would take the sense of the committee upon it. On the third sub-section of the clause, Mr Murray proposed the omission of all words after “ Gazette ” in third line, Messrs Stout, Montgomery, and others, objected to the retention of that part of the clause, as throwing into the hands of Government undue patronage of newspapers. The discussion was interrupted by the dinner hour. Mr T. Kelly, member for Taranaki, has given notice that on Wednesday next he will move —“ That in the opinion of this House it is desirable a Commissioner or Commissioners be appointed to visit and report on the exhibition to be held in Philadelphia in 1876 ; that such Commissioner, or one ol such Commissioners, should be a mechanical expert, whose special duty shall be to inquire into and ascertain what labor saving machines, tools, or implements there exhibited may with advantage be introduced into New Zealand in order to develope its natural resources.”