GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Globe, Volume IV, Issue 408, 2 October 1875, Page 2

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

(Press Telegraph Agency .)

Thursday, September 30. The House resumed at 7.30. AUCKLAND WASTE LANDS ACT.

The Auckland Waste Lands Act, 1874, Amendment Bill was postponed till Wednesday.

DEBATE ON SECOND READING EMPLOYMENT OF FEMALES’ ACT AMENDMENT BILL.

Mr Bradshaw requested that it might be postponed, so that it might be circulated in the large towns. Mr Reid objected, as the postponement virtually meant its abandonment. The hon gentleman believed the Bill would prove advantageous to women employed in factories; and that when the Act now in force was passed, he understood it was meant to apply principally to milliners and dressmakers confined for long hours in small unhealthy rooms. It was not intended by the Bill to increase the number of hours during which female labour might be employed. All the Bill authorised was that the time during which the eight hours might be computed should be between 6 a.m. and 6 p.m., in place of between 8 a.m. and 6 p.m. The hon gentleman pointed out that expensive machinery had been imported, and large expenses incurred in founding woollen manufactories in the colony, that they had to compete with home manufacturers, that a large amount of capital would be idle if the present Act remained in force. In fact he did not hesitate to say that a continuance of the present Act would have the effect of closing some of the mills now at work, and this he contended would not be a wise action on the part of the House. As to the company (the Mosgiel") paying ten per cent dividend he showed that shares were now at a discount. If the mills were closed what would become of the women who had come out to the colony with expectation of having to work in factories. Some 195 were at present so employed. He did not see what possible hardship there was in allowing females to make their own arrangements with the employers as to what portion of the day they should work the eight hours. The present Act heavily handicapped our industries as compared with similar ones in the mother country. For instance, the working hours at home are ten hours per day, or one agd a quarter days’ per week more than ia

this colony. He hoped the House would allow the Bill to be read a second Mine

Mr Bradshaw would oppose the s omul reading. He referred to the Bill having been introduced for the benefit of the Mo-gin! Company, and pointed out the advantages already enjoyed by that company, the subsidy of £ISOO they had received as bonus from 'the Provincial Government, the saving they effected by not having to pay freight of wool to England, and of the return freight of the manufactured articles back to the colony. As to the shares being at discount, that was owing to over speculation, which rendered it desirable, in the opinion of the directors, to raise money by placing a large number of shares in the market, and this naturally caused depreciation, The hon gentleman proceeded to read copious extracts from works on employment of labor in England and Russia, and concluded by saying that the Bill would have the effect of destroying the lives and constitutions of women and children, ’and considered that women should be placed on the same footing as children,viz, onlyallowed to work half time.

Hon Mr Reynolds considered the present Act too stringent. It would be sufficient, in his opinion, if a provision was made for ensuring proper ventilation in the mills, and that girls were not overworked. Perhaps (he said) too much legislation in this direction may be doing an injury rather than any good to the persons for whose benefit the Bill had been ostensibly framed. He believed adult women would not thank the House for the proposed Bill. They were quite able to take care of themselves. The hon gentleman thought the House might just as well pass an Act restricting women in their actions in other matters, as, for instance, that they should not wear silk dresses or chignons or should not play the piano. The House should not put restrictions on the industry of the female population. The hon gentleman said he only spoke his individual opinion, and believed that some of bis colleagues were not in accord with him on this question. He would support the second reading. Mr I uckie criticised Mr Bradshaw’s state ment at some length, entirely dissenting from the opinion that the Bill would in any way act injuriously to women, and that the fact of hours of work (not exceeding eight) being a matter of arrangement between employers and employees would entail no hardship on women, nor subject them to any oppression. The hon gentleman would cordially support the second reading. Mr Kolleston opposed the Bill, He did not see that the House should be called upon to legislate for the benefit of some special institution. He considered that the system of relays or shifts would have the effect of enabling the employers to evade the Act by keeping women and children at work for a longer time than the law allowed. He moved that the Bill be read that day six mouths.

Hon C. C. Bowen would make a few remarks, as he differed on this subject from his colleague, Mr Reynolds. If the Act would only affect one particular factory, and if a proper check could be enforced, so that the law would not be evaded in respect to the employment of women and children, he would not object to the Bill, but it would apply to all manufactories throughout the colony, and he did not think the third clause would prove an effectual safeguard against the overworking of women and children. He thought women should be protected even against themselves, and instanced a petition presented to the Imperial Legislature in which women asked not to be restricted to certain working hours, they had got into a groove of working long hours aud were afraid of losing any portion of their earnings. He thought it a great pity if the Legislature, to benefit one institution, stepped in, and by passing an exceptional Act, made concessions which subsequently it might be found difficult to control. He was afraid that this Bill would only be the first instalment of other demands. The next probably would bo that women should be allowed to work by night as well as by day. The proper sphere of women was the domestic one. Their outside work should bo exceptionally guarded, otherwise, as women were under the control of men, it would be handing over to men the control of women s labor. He would have wished to have had more time to consider the measure, and especially to have ascertained ,wbat was the feeling towards it of the parents and guardians of the girls employed in factories. He should vote against the second reading.

Mr Buckland did not see the force of the objection raised by Mr Bradshaw. The Bill would not increase the time during which women would be allowed to work by one minute. He referred to women being employed in the telegraph department, and said all the Bill asks for is to be allowed to do outside Government departments what is now constantly done in them. He was surprised at Mr Bowen saying the concessions proposed in the Bill might lead to women being employed at night. That was done in the telegraph department, where they worked by shirts. He would support the second reading, for he believed the material and moral prosperity of the class referred to therein would be enhanced by the operation of this Bill.

Mr T. L. Shepherd considered that unless the restrictions of the present Act were relaxed the establif hment of manufactories in the colony would be raucn impeded. The Bill sufficiently ensures that women shall not be overworked, lie read an article from the Australasian, denouncing a similar measure passed by the Victorian Legislature, but which had to be almost immediately suspended, asit was found to work injuriously. He would support the second reading. Mr Bradshaw took advantage of the amendment having been moved, to make another speech, principally about England, llussia, and Lord Shaftesbury, and amongst other remarks, the hon gentleman said the Bill belore the House allowed women and children to be employed in factories on Sundays. Mr Thomson opposed the second reading. Mr .Keid replied, and explained how it was he had taken charge of the Bill. He had been asked by certain directors of the Mosgiel factory if such a Bill were introduced would he support it, and had replied that he would, but was under the impression it would be a Government measure. Government not having moved in the matter, he had done so. He would assure the House that the directors had no wish, nor intention to raise their dividends by the expenditure of human flesh and blood, but that they would be just as careful to protect the lives and constitutions of those employed by them as any of those who spoke so warmly against the Bill. Mr Bolleston's amendment, viz, that the Bill be read in six month.-, was lost on the

voices, the second reading was carried, the division being:— \ •,cs ... ... ••• ••• 31 Nucrt ... ••• ••• ••• 25 l! is to be committed on Wednesdey. REGISTRATION OF ELECTORS, Mr iVi’EWAuD Amoved the second leading of the Registration of Electors Act Amendment Bill. Messrs Luckie and Webb would support it. Hon C. P, Bowen sa d that as the Qualification < f Electors Act had been discharged, Government, were prepared to take up this Bill. Government agreed with the general principle of the Bill, but would propose certain amendments in committee. Mr Cuthbertson hoped Government would not allow this Bill to drop through, as was done with the Qualification of Electors Bill. He wished to know if the Bill wore intended to affect the electorate of New Zealand for the next Parliament. If it did not do so, it was a sham, and might as well be shelved at once. As the Dill at present stdod, it would not affect a single vote at the next election. He would vote for the second reading. Sir George grey spoke highly in favor of the Bill, and thought the House and country were much indebted to Mr Steward for introducing it. He thought Government had acted wisely in accepting it, and thanked them for doing so. Hon Major Atkinson said Govirnment would use every endeavour to make the Bill available for next election, but if they found they could not do so, they would still go on with it, and ask the House to pass it this session. It would not do, however, to make it applicable to one part of the colony and not to another, as had been suggested by Mr Cuthbertson. Government would never consent to such a course. Mr Sheehan thought Government had acted wisely in taking up the Bill, and would cordially support the second reading. At the same time he was doubtful if there were time to make it operative at the next election; but however desirable it might be to make it so, it would, in his opinion, be better to wait a year than pass a crude and imperfect Act on so important a question. There were great difficulties in passing a Bill of this kind, which required much thought and careful attention. Mr White would support the second reading. Mr May opposed, but if it passed the second reading hoped it would then be dropped till next session. Mr Pykb hoped the Bill would bo withdrawn, and pointed out what he considered were serious imperfections, especially as to giving the franchise only to those who had paid their rates, &c, and, having voted for the Qualification of Electors Bill, he would be inconsistent if he voted for this, which was entirely at variance with the former. Ho would oppose the second reading. Mr Harrison pointed out that the second clause appeared to be in contravention of the Constitution Act, in that it would give aliens— eg., Chinese, as ratepayers, the right to vote. Mr STEWARD thanked the Government for having taken charge of the Bill, and was glad they had done so. Referring to certain objections raised, and particularly to the point adverted to by Mr Harrison, the hon gentleman hoped the Bill would bo so amended in committee as to make it a really useful one. Read a second time, and to be committed on Tuesday. GOLD DUTY ABOLITION BILL. No 1 (Mr Shepherd’s) was postponed, and Sir G. Grey was allowed to take his (No 2) first. In moving the second reading, Sir G. GREY said the gold duty was one which pressed heavily on a portion of the population little able to bear it, and that the revenue derived from such duty could be easily raised by taxing a class of people much better able to support it, Hon Major Atkinson considered the abolition of the gold duty would in no way benefit the class of people on whose behalf this Bill was apparently framed, and that its provisions and effect had not been sufficiently thought out. There might have been some show of reason for such a Bill when the gold duty was applied to the general purposes of the whole province, but none whatever now that it was wholly spent in the district whence it was derived. The revenue for gold duty was required for roads, &c, in the goldfields, and if it was repealed a tax must be levied to supply its place. The goldfield members should tell their constituents that they will receive £2 for every £1 raised by the gold duty. The hon gentleman quoted from a telegram just received from the Thames, approving of the stand the Go vernment bad taken in opposing the repeal of the gold duty. Mr Shepherd thought that next session the gold duty would be abolished, but was not in favour of its immediate repeal. He would, however, support the second reading of the Bill, in hope of thereby getting more votes for his own Bill. Mr Luckie thought this question of abolition was more an idea than a reality. He saul the Thames was perhaps the best represented district of tbc raining interest in New Zealand, and that the press as a rule represented the opinions of the people in the district in which they existed. He then referred to an article in the Thames Advertiser, condemning the action of Sir G. Grey in attempting to abolish the tax just as the district was about to derive some benefit from it. If such a Bill as Sir G. Grey’s were passed, it would do serious injury to the district, causing a loss of some £9OOO annually, and whatever damaged one district would injure in same proportion every gold district in the colony. Mr Bradshaw would support the Bill, as he considered the tax a vicious one, which militated against the prosperity of the goldfields. Mr Buckland thought it would be suicidal to abolish the tax. Such a course would not benefit the miners; on the contrary, it would seriously injure them. It might perhaps benefit some large companies, but would afford none to the working man on the goldfields. His wages would not be increased one penny a day, whereas the proceeds of the tax would give them roads to places which would be otherwise inaccessible.

Mr Wakefield expressed himself in favor of continuing the tax on gold. He thought Bir G. Grey should have added a provision that the Bill should not come into operation until after the expiration of the forthcoming Parliament, since he was so anxious for the voice of the people upon all measures of im portance. Mr Basstjan supported the Bill,

Mr O’Neil would strongly support the Bill. He looked upon the tax as a most unjust one, and had voted for its redaction since 18(i7. When tiny recollected that £30,000,000 had been exported from the gold fields, they ought to bear in mind that some consideration was due to those men who had done that work.

Sir G. Grey thanked Mr Shepherd for giving way to him by allowing this Bill to take precedence. Referring to the remarks of the Colonial Treasurer, he said he had devoted over a year to reflection on the subject, and thought he had given it as able a consideration as had the Colonial Treasurer. At a large meeting of miners and ratepayers at Thames no objection was raised to ' '■■ ■ abolition of the gold duty. As to subsidy of the £2 to £1 it was a mere fallacy The endowment (falsely so called) nroposed to be given to minors what had first been taken from them. Leave the subsidy (said bon gentleman) and the gold duty in their own pockets, and raise the revenue from those who ought to contribute it. The great requirement was that those persons should he taxed who now escaped taxation. Ho asked simply for equal justice for all. Let them introduce a system of equitable taxation and good government by a wholesome system of economy instead of that flagrant waste and extravagance which now obtained. [Hon Major Atkinson laughed ] Derisive laughter would not affect him. The Colonial Treasurer knew he was assisting to promote an unjust system of taxation in this country. He knew, moreover, that he was aiding others to squander the public revenues and the public estate. Jeers and laughter would make no impression on him while he vvas stating those truths —truths which would be recognised throughout the colony before long. He felt that ho represented the true feeling of the goldfields, with which he was most intimately acquainted. He might be defeated on this measure; but those who recorded their votes with him would have their names recorded as the benefactors of their countrymen. He would press the matter to a division in order that it might bo seen who were with him. The division was as follows : Ayes BS Noes 27 Mr Shepherd then moved the second reading of the Gold Duty Abolition Bill, No ], reducing the gold duty to sixpence per ounce. Mr Harrison would oppose the Bill. If the revenue were taken away with the subsidy with which it was proposed to supplement that revenue, the effect would be most diastrous upon the goldfields. Mr White supported the measure. In all advanced countries the tax was not imposed. On the question being put, a division was taken, and the Bill was thrown out by 28 to 14. ANN HOOD BILL. The Ann Hood Grant Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Wednesday. BLENHEIM GRAMMAR SCHOOL. The Blenheim Grammar School Endowment Bill was discharged from the order paper, on the motion of Mr Ingles. BILL PASSED. The Invercargill Municipal Council Empowering and Waterworks Loan Bill was committed, read a third time, and passed. LICENSING ACT. The Licencing Act Amendment Bill was committed. Mr STEWARD proposed a new clause, lo the effect that females employed in public houses should come within the 42nd section of the. Act of 1874, whether they received remuneration or otherwise when working after the prescribed hours. After some discussion, generally unfavourable to the introduction of the clause, it was withdrawn. The Bill was then reported, read a third time, and passed. WASTE LANDS. The next order of the day being the question raised by Mr Stout as to tbe disposal of the waste lands, Hon Major Atkinson moved that it be discharged, but on Mr Ballance expressing his willingness to take up the subject next Wednesday, Sir Donald McLean said there would be no objection to adjourning the debate. WELLINGTON HOSPITAL. The Wellington Hospital Loan Act Amendment Bill was committed, read a third time, and passed. The House adjourned at 1,30 a.m. Friday, October 1. The Speaker took the chair at 2.30. petition. Sir George Grey presented a petition from Messrs Keid and Brett, of the Auckland Evening Star, complaining of the charges made for press telegrams for evening papers, and praying for relief. The Speaker said that the petition being printed could not be received. Sir George Grey then asked leave to lay it on the table. Permission was granted, and the petition was laid on the table. QUESTION. Mr J. O. Brown asked Governmentif they will obtain the opinion of the SolicitorGeneral as to whether the rules and regulations of the Waipori drainage channel, laid upon the table on the 30th September, 1875, are not ultra vires ; also if they will lay such opinion upon the table at the earliest opportunity. Hon E. Richardson said Government would lay the rules and regulations before the Solicitor-General, and would take whatever action he advised in the matter. BILLS PASSED. Railways’ Bill; Neglected and Criminal Children’s Act Amendment Bill; Friendly Societies’ Act Amendment Bill ; Evidence Farther Amendment Bill. SECOND READINGS. Imprisonment for Debt Abolition Bill; Riddell Land Grant Bill. FIRST READINGS The following Bills were introduced and read a first time :—Outram Telegraph Station Reserve Bill (Hon Mr Reynolds) ; Dunedin Corporation Borrowing Bill (Mr Pyke) ; New Zealand University Reserves Bill (Hon C. C. Bowen) ; Wellington Reclaimed Land Act (Hon B. Richardson) ; Lodgers’ Enfranchisement Bill (Mr Wakefield). EVIDENCE AMENDMENT BILL. Upon the committal of the Evidence Further Amendment Bill, Mr Curtis moved the introduction of a clause to enable the Judge in criminal cases to ask a question under certain restrictions. The hou gentleman spoke at considerable length, to show the advantage of such a clause in furthering the ends of justice. lion C. O, Bowen did not fed justified in sanctioning the introduction of something

so radically opposed to the principles of the law of evidence, without consulting the Judge and high law officers. At the request of the Hon C. O. Bowen, the clause was withdrawn. ADJOURNED DEBATE ON DEBTORS AND CREDITORS BILL. This was resumed by Mr HUNTER, who hoped the House would go into committee on the Bill, so as to make it as perfect as could be. It would be impossible to frame any perfect measure .on that question in one attempt. Mr Curtis opposi d the committal of the Bill, as he objected to the whole of its principles. Hr ‘ w ANSON thought flint the best law that could be, introduced would be one simply repealing the insolvency Act and nothing else. He strongly supported the clause making after acquired property liable for debts previously contracted. They ought to be made pay their debts whenever they were able. As for protection against the vindictive creditor, that was a character he rarely saw in real life. As a rule creditors were rather inclined to be lenient.

Mr Wakefield thought the Bill was for creditors alone, as it was oppressive to debtors, It made no distinction between the different grades of debtors. Guilty and innocent men were all treated alike. Mr Sheehan said that, after careful consideration, ho doubted the advisability of proceeding further with the Bill that session. The subject was new, and they had better leave it for the new Parliament to deal with it. The Bill perpetrated a grievous injustice upon the honest bankrupt as compared with the way the fraudulent bankrupt was treated. The Bill ought to be sent before the general public as well as before the Chambers of Commerce. Making after acquired property liable was a most retrograde step. Hon O. 0. Bowen said there was a good deal of misconception regarding the Act. When considering the question of bankruptcy, it was asked how the case would stand if the bankruptcy law were done away with. Then immediately cropped upthe question of how to deal with fraudulent bankrupts. As the present law was based upon great many wrong principles, the object was in introducing that Act to establish the law upon a fresh basis altogether. At present a fraudulently-inclined trader had an immense power over his creditors, by the facility with which he could seek the ease of the Insolvency Court, and become whitewashed. Ho could hold that over his creditors’ heads like a weapon. The hon gentleman defended the provisions of the Bill at considerable length. Referring to after-acquired property being liable, he said that after most careful inquiry he could not find an instance of the abuse of that privilege. He had no particular desire to force the Bill upon them without any alteration, but he considered it would bo very odd if amongst so many business men they could not make the Bill a good measure while in committee.

A division was called for by Mr Murray, which resulted in the Bill being ordered to be committed by 84 to 28. In committee, Mr Pyke divided tl c House on clause 2, which he proposed to amend by making the Act come into operation in 1975, The amendment was rejected by 38 to 28. The Bill progressed as far as clause 26, which was postponed. Clause 20 was also postponed. The House rose at 5 80 p.m. REPRESENTATION BILL. (Press Telegraph Agency ) The Representation Act, clause 2, is as follows :—After the dissolution of the present Parliament the House of Representatives shall consist of eighty-two members over and beyond the four Maori members. (3) The existing electoral districts are confirmed, with certain exceptions hereinafter mentioned. (4) The number of members to be returned by each of the said districts respectively shall be as set forth opposite the name of such district in the schedule to the Representation Act, 1870, as amended by the Representation Act Amendment Act, 1871 (which said Acts are hereinafter referred to as “the said Acts ”), except where otherwise provided by this Act. (5) In addition to the number of members now returnable for the under-mentioned electoral districts constituted under the said Acts, there shall be returned for such districts the number of members set opposite the name of each district, as follows—Thames, one member ; Napier, oric ; Grey Valley, one ; Timaru, one; Hokitika, one; Waitaki, one; city of Dunedin, one. The city of Christchurch district, as constituted under this Act, shall, in addition to the members now returnable for the districts of city of Christchurch east and city of Christchurch west, shall return one member. The electoral districts of city of Christchurch east and city of Christchurch west, as now constituted under the. said Acts, shall together form one electoral district, and be called by the name of city of Christchurch district. The electoral districts of Auckland city east and Auckland city west, as now constituted under the said Acts, shall together form one district, and be called by the name of Auckland city district. (7) Except as provided by the electoral rolls, which, under the provisions of the Registration of Electors Act, 1866, came into operation on Ist day September, 1875, for the electoral districts for the election of members of the said House, as such districts were constituted immediately before the passing of this Act, shall remain in fall force and operation. (8.) Imur diately after the passing of this Act the officers to be appointed by the Governor for that purpose shall form new electoral rolls for the electoral districts constituted under this Act. (9) For the purpose of forming such new electoral rolls the name of every elector registered on any roll, which under the provisions of 'the Registration of Electors Act, 1866, is in force on the first day of September, 1875, whose qualification is in respect of lands and tenements situate within either of the electoral districts as constituted immediately before the passing of this Act, and which under this Act together form one electoral district, shall be placed on the new electoral roll or rolls of the electoral districts so constituted under this Act; provided that if any elector on the former rolls be registered in respect of landffor tenements situate in two or more of the original districts, the registration officer may, in forming the new rolls, omit the name of such elector from the roll of either one or more of the new electoral districts within which such elector may not appear to the registration officer to have a sufficient electoral qualification. (10.) Upon such new electoral rolls being so formed as last aforesaid, the same shall forthwith be forwarded to the Golonial •Secretary, and shall be published in such

convenient manner as the Governor shall direct, and from the day of such publication the electoral roll formed foreach district shall he the electoral roll to be used f< -ach district for all purposes until a revised electoral roll for the same shall be in force under the provisions of the law for the time being in force for the registration of electors. (II) Writs shall he is'-ned for the election of members of the House of Representatives in the ensuing Parliament for all the electoral districts constituted under the said Acts and ;this Act, so soon as the new rolls shall have been formed and published as hereinbefore provided. (12) Provided always that notwithstanding anything in this Act contained, if it shall appear to the Governor (o be necessary to summon a Parliament before the new electoral rolls for the electoral districts constituted by this Act, for which new rolls arc to be formed, shall have been formed and pub lished as hereinbefore provided, it shall be lawful for the Governor, from time to time to issue writs for the election of members of the House of Representatives in like manner as if this Act had not been passed, and in such case no election shall take place under this present provision until after the dissolution or expiration of the Parliament next succeeding this present Parliament, and in that case the Governor shall immediately upon such expiration or dissolution appoint such officers as are mentioned in the eighth section of this Act, and also in that case tfie rolls in foice under the Registration of Electors Act, 186(5, at the time of such expiration or dissolution shall be the rolls from which such officers shall form such new rolls.