PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Nelson Examiner and New Zealand Chronicle, Volume XIII, Issue 626, 4 March 1854, Page 2

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Wednesday, February 15.

Present — All the Members except Messrs. Otterson, Barnicoat, and Ward.

Mr. Elliott brought up the memorial which had been agreed to by a Select Committee, respecting the grant of land at Motueka to the Bishop of New Zealand for an Industrial School. He moved that copies be transmitted to the Secretary of State for the Colonies, the Officer Administering the Government, and the General Assembly. Agreed to.

The Speaker read a message from his Honor the Supeintendent, relative to the Estimates.

Mr. Stephens brought up the report of the Select Committee on the New Zealand Company's debt. He moved, that the report be received, and do lie on the table.

Agreed to.

Dr. Monro moved the suspension of the Standing Orders to consider the message of his Honor, which had just been received. He moved that the Council resolve itself into Committee, and that Mr. Stephens take the chair. Mr. Collins seconded the motion. Agreed to.

The Clerk then read the message. Dr. Monro felt compelled to say, tftat this was a very extraordinary message. His Honor stated that he was unable to consider the request of the Council because the former rasolution which they had agreed to had not been rescinded. He, (Dr. Monro,) could not see that the two resolutions clashed at all. They had stated that it was very inexpedient to have communication with his Honor respecting the Appropriation of the Revenue till the Bill went to him. It had been said, and not contradicted, that an argument entered into upon the Estimates, between the Superintendent and the Council, could lead to no result. Till the Bill went to his Honor any remarks upon it from the Government could be made by the Executive Officers who had seats in the Council. The Council had requested his Honor to place a specific sum on the Estimates fora certain purpose ; he could not but express his regret that his Honor should have so strained their Resolution as to act without attention to their request. He had placed the Council in a position in which they ought not to be placed by the chief Executive Officer, and it was difficult for them to do their duty to their constituents, and at the same time provide for the efficiency of the public service. He must say this message had been written in a spirit of factious opposition. The session was so far advanced that they were compelled to act with promptitude. They could pass the Bill without a sum for the Resident Magistrate's department at all ; or they could vote such a sum under that head as would suffice, without the salary of the Resident Magistrate. He trusted that they might arrive at a course which would best extricate them from their very awkward position.

Mr. Saxton said, they had, in their course of duty, struck out of the Bill the salary of the Resident Magistrate, and also the word Resident. The Bill wa3 6entdown with this item again in the schedule, and again it was struck out, with a request from the Council that his Honor would place such a sum against the Magistrates' department as would provide for a clerk and the contingencies. He was certainly taken by •urprise at the message which they had received. They had requested that a certain specific act might be performed ; they had not invited remarks. Instead of complying with their request, his Honor bad called their attention to a former Resolution of the Council, in which it was stated that they considered the proper time for his Honor to make remarks respecting the appropriation of the revenue to be when the Appropriation .JBill went up to him. He considered this .conduct so extraordinary, that if he was more iairaical to his Honor he should . express his contempt for a man whose ability would lead him to act in such a manner. >It reminded him of a character in one of v Captain Marryatt's works, a Mr. Midship.man Easy, who upon all occasions, and when he received the plainest directions, replied, I will argue the question with you. They had asked his Honor constitutionally and respectfully to concede to their wishes, and he had refused to do so.

Dr. Renwick was much surprised to hear the argument of his Honor. For he had in other cases attended to the wishes of the Council, as for instance in the placing an additional sum under the Harbour department for an additional pilot. The course he thought best to adopt, was, to expunge the word "Resident," and vote the rejnainder of the item. He would let the

onus rest with the Superintendent of allowing or disallowing the Bill.

Mr. Parker remarked, that the Council had asked the Superintendent to do a certain thing, and wished to prevent him from making any remarks upon it.

Mr. Speaker agreed with Dr. Monro, Mr. Saxton, and Dr. Renwick. He was pained to think the Superintendent had been so advised -as to decline to act in accordance with the wishes of the Council. If he bad acted on bis own advice, he was sorry for hia judgment. He was sorry his Honor had placed himself in antagonism to the Council.

The Chairman would pass the Bill, and throw the onus upon his Honor of rejecting it on account of the item objected to. Dr. Monro thought the form of government under which we now were living was not properly understood. They had some time ago, at the commencement of the session, raised the question, who was to be responsible, the Superintendent or his Executive? Those who argued that the Superintendent was not to be responsible, should not now say that his Honor could not express his opinions. He had his Executive officer to explain his views, and could appoint two others, members of that Council. He maintained that his Honor was asking them to call black white, by insisting that they should pay an officer who was not under their control after they had expressly and unanimously determined not to do so.

Mr. Adams said the Superintendent had the power of giving his reasons, or not doing so, till the Resolution which had been agreed to by the Council prevented him. He conceived it to be his duty to point out what was illegal, and he had hoped the Council would have retraced its steps, and not have placed the Superintendent in the position he now stood in. It was impossible for one person to properly represent the Superintendent in the Council. He could only say if the Magistrate's department was retained, and the word " Resident " omitted, it would probably endanger the Bill. Mr. Collins thought such a Resolution as the last which they had agreed to, should have been acquiesced in by the Superintendent without any remark.

Dr. Renwick thought, when they passed the Executive Bill, it was intended to have the Executive officers as representatives of the Superintendent in the Council, where they could discuss and represent his views. They were not responsible that the Government was represented only by its legal adviser in the Council.

Mr. Elliott was induced to rise by what bad been said respecting the part he and other members had taken in passing the Executive Councils' Bill. In supporting that Bill he had hoped to have seen the Superintendent represented in the Council by the members of his Executive, who, having been a party to all the measures of the Government, might then justly be held responsible for them. The Council however, when it passed this Bill, did not quite approve of a responsible Executive, but the experience they had since had of its necessity must have greatly lessened the objection to it which some honourable members then entertained. It was true, the Bill as it was passed, authorised the Superintendent to nominate two non- official members of the Council to be members of the Executive, and he regretted that his Honor had not thought fit to act upon this authority, as it was evident that the Provincial Solicitor bad too many demands upou his time to be able efficiently to represent his Honor, and conduct the Government business in that Council. With respect to the question now before them, he thought the Superintendent was wrong in opposing the wishes of the Council, buti'that any difference had arisen between his Honor and themselves was, he considered, attributable in a great degree to their own conduct. The Council had never given to his Honor that confidence which, as the head of the Government of the Province, he was entitled to receive. He did" not charge against any individual members a factious opposition to the Superintendent, but he would assert, and he was borne out in this by a very general opinion out of doors, that the Council had never given to his Honor a hearty and cordial support. At the commencement of the Session the Superintendent came forward in the frankest manner, stated k his own views on the policy to be pursued, and courted the opinions of the Council, but his Honor was not met in the same spirit. Could it be wondered then, that when there was an exhibition of mistrust on one side, that cordiality should ceaae on the other f Thus the Session had progressed, until the position of the Superintendent, as well •« that m( the Council, bad becomd embarrassing. It was difficult now to say what should be done, but under all

circumstances, placed as they were, it would perhaps be best to omit the Magistrate's department from the Bill altogether. Dr. Monro said, that although Mr. Elliott had probed the matter more deeply than any preceding speaker, yet he had not gone far enough. The fault was in the Constitution Act, and he believed it must be altered. He had always foreseen that the portion of the Act which related to the Provincial Councils would not work satisfactorily. He believed the harmonious relation which at present existed in other Provinces between the Superintendents and their Councils was accidental, and he thought it would come to be recognised that the Superintendent should be elected from the Council, instead of being elected by the actual constituency of the Province. Here was his Honor inadequately represented in the Council, and the two legislative bodies were in opposition to each other upon one of the most important Bills of the session. It was not likely that the members of the Council, three-fourths of whom had voted against the election of his Honor, would cordially support him, but he must say there was a total absence of combination against his Honor. Every member voted he believed according to his conscience, and not from any factious motives. He begged to move the following resolution :—: — "That as his Honor has declined to accede to the wishes of the Council, and objects to place on the Appropriation Bill the sum recommended, this Council is compelled to pass an Appropriation Bill without any provision for the service of a very important department, viz., the Magistrates', and considers that the responsibility of that omission rests with the Superintendent, and in no respect with the Council ; Jand that this resolution be reported to the Council.]

Dr. Renwick seconded the motion. Mr. Elliott had said the Superintendent bad not received that free and generous support which he ought to have bad. He had given him his support as far as he could. He maintained that the first ungracious act came from his Honor, in orderingfthe Pilot not to attend the Committee which was sitting on the subject of an additional pilot. His Honor had adroitly evaded the question in his answer to a resolution asking him to order officers to attend the Council. He should have respected him more if he had given a denial, with his reasons, in a straightforward manner. He might also remark, that the Secretary bad been struck out of the Executive Bill because his Honor said he did not intend to appoint any such officer at present, and the Council thought there was no necessity for creating an office in the Bill if it was not to be filled up. Mr. Elliott considered the conduct of the Superintendent, in directing the Pilot to take his instructions only from himself, was perfectly justifiable. The Pilot Committee had been wanting in courtesy to the head of the Government, when it summoned the Pilot to attend and give evidence before them, without conveying that summons through the Superintendent. If the Committee had been desirous of examining the servant of any private individual, would they not have intimated their wish to the employer ; and what was required in the one case was equally so in the other. The Superintendent had told the Council by message, that he would at all times be willing to direct the public servants to attend a summons of the Council when required, if at the time they could properly be spared from their duties, and this was all which the Council could properly ask or expect. Mr. Collins agreed with Mr. Elliott in thinking the Superintendent was justified in the course he had adopted on that occasion. The motion was then put and agreed to. The Council resumed, and the Chairman reported the Resolution to the Council, which was adopted. Mr. Stiphens moved the suspension of the Standing Orders, in order that the Appropriation Bill might by then read a third time. Dr. Monro seconded the motion. Agreed to. Mr. Adams moved the third reading of the Bill. Mr. Parker said, before the question was put, he wished to make a few remarks. He was unfortunately absent at the time when the Estimates were considered, or he should have moved for some small allowance for a better postal communication between Nelson and Motueka. The residents at Motueka received their letters very irregularly indeed, and the inconvenience was very much felt. The owners of boats had complained of being subject to some annoyances at the Custom House, which bad greatly interfered with the water communication across the bay. It was a general opinion that the establishment of a jetty, at an expense of £100 or £150, would be of great

service to Motueka. As it appeared the Council thought members ought not to be paid their travelling expenses, for the convenience of the country members he would suggest to the Superintendent, that his Honor should convene the next Council at some place in the country, so that the town members might have a change. Mr. Stephens quite agreed with Mr. Parker respecting the present deficient state of the postal communication between this port and Motueka, and he should be glad to support any measure for its improvement. He was not present when the proposition was laid before the Council t> cut a road from Riwaka to Massacre Bay, or he should have opposed it, as it was his belief that no available road could be made without expending a large sum of money. The motion was then put and agreed to, and the Bill was read a third time and passed.

Mr. Elliott, at the request of Dr. Monro, postponed his motion respecting the conduct of the Governor in not summoning the General Council, till the next sitting.

Dr. Renwick gave notice of a motion for Friday, respecting a schedule to be attached to the Appropriation Bill. The Council then adjourned till Friday.

Friday, February 1/.

Present — All the members except Messrs. Otterson, Barnicoat, and Ward.

Mr. Elliott, in rising to bring forward the Resolution of which he had given notice, respecting the conduct of his Excellency Sir George Grey in not calling together the General Assembly at the time contemplated by the Constitution Act, said he should have been more gratified if some one else possessed of more leisure than himself, and from whom the subject might have received greater justice, had brought ie forward. He conceived there could not be brought forward v motion of more importance than this, and as no other member had thought proper to move in the matter, he could not allow the Session to close without calling upon the Council to express its opinion upon the course the Governor had thought fit to pursue. In the Constitution Act, the intention of the Imperial Parliament was plainly expressed in the 44th clause, and a further confirmation of its intention was clearly shown in the 66th clause, which provided for the distribution of the revenue according to the decision of the General Assembly. In pursuing the course he had adopted, it was therefore very clear that Sir George Grey had trampled upon the law. The highest authority in the colony, whose peculiar duty it was to enforce and uphold the law, has set the example of transgressing it. This was a very serious and grave offence. Such was the almost superstitious reverence entertained by Englishmen for the law, that for the colonists of New Zealand to see the Representative of their Sovereign violating it at his will and pleasure, could not but have a most injurious and baneful effect. The conduct of the Governor in the matter could not be censured too highly. There were no difficulties in the way of bis calling together the General Assembly as he ought to have done. One illegality had begat another ; — the Provincial Councils had been reluctantly compelled to follow the illegal example set by the Governor, or else, the'whole public business of the colony must have come to a stand still- If the General Assembly had been called together, many of the difficulties which have arisen would have been avoided, and many points upon which there existed differences of opinion would have been settled ; whereas, jarring differences bad sprung up, and probably lasting difficulties, had been created by the unfortunate and illegal policy of the Governor in violating the Constitution Act. He begged to move the following Resolution ~ " That both Houses of Parliament, and the Secretary of State'for the Colonies, be addressed on the subject of his Excellency the Governor having failed to summon the General Assembly previous to the assembling of the various Provincial Councils, and also on the fact of hi ) Excellency having now left the colony for England without doing so ; " and that Messrs. Monro, Adams, Stephens, and Elliott, bj appointed a committee to draw up a memorial in accordance with the foregoing Resolution. Mr. Hough seconded the motion.

Dr. Moneo supported the motion, and felt indebted to Mr. Elliott for having brought it forward. He was glad to tee the subject brought under the notice of the Council, though he felt that he was not the proper person to do so, as be was a member of the General Assembly, and if he had originated the motion it might be supposed that his reasons arose from wounded pride or vanity. He felt bound to make a few

remarks upon his own conduct, as it might appear to some persons to be inconsistent. In 1549 he had supported the Governor, although his support was given in opposition to the opinions of the great majority of his fellow colonists. In 1854, he felt bound to condemn his Excellency's conduct. The cases were widely different. In 1849 the country was not so rich as it now was, nor were affairs generally upon such a good batis as they no<v stood. The native war had hardly ceased, the Governor enjoyed the confidence of the natives to a greater degree than any other individual, and the Governor then declared most deliberately, that the conferring of representative institutions would probably lead to unpleasant results, and he felt inclined to agree with him. Another reason for his support of the Governor, and a strong one in his mind, was the existence of the New Zealand Company, which was exercising at that time great power. It might have wielded this power for political purposes, and if it had do no ao it would have prevented the legitimate and proper development of representative institutions. He had been a good deal abused at the time, but upon reflection he did not regret the course he adopted. Dr. Monro then read an extract from a letter written by Mr. Sewell, and lately published, in which complaint was made of the undue influence which the Land Commissioners at present possess, and he then went on to remark, that if such observations were just as applied to them, they were far more applicable to the New Zealand Com* pany as it at that time existed. In 1849 the Governor was pursuing a constitutional or legal course ; he was authorised to appoint a Council either of representatives or of nominees; he chose the latter. In 1854 the Governor pursued a different course ; he had seen his Excellency's conduct defended at Wellington on technical grounds, but he could not consent to such a defence. He would enquire shortly what sort of Parliament the Imperial Parliament intended to give us. They intended to give us a Parliament elected from the whole country. They also gave us Provincial Councils, which were intended to be subordinate to the former. The Governor then had usurped the reins of power, had constituted himself the two houses of the General Assembly, bad ignored their functions, and had distributed the revenue according to the fitful fancy of hi» own ate volo. The Provincial Councils must be held responsible, he imagined, for the course they bad adopted. The appropriation of their portion of the revenue was clearly as illegal, as the usurped authority which originated such a course, and he believed an act of indemnity must be passed by the General Assembly to relieve them from the illegality they had unwillingly committed. This wa3 not a healthy state of things. As a member ot the General Assembly, he blamed the Governor, first, for the illegality he bad committed ; secondly, for the consequences which arose from it : thirdly, for the policy which he was attempting to force on the colony, by preventing its action as a whole body. One thing which the colony as a whole was prevented by this policy from taking up, was steam communication. He looked upon the introduction of efficient steam communication with other provinces and other countries as a matter of such momentous interest to this Province, as so calculated to increase its wealth, to foster its growth, and to improve its condition, both socially, intellectually, and politically, that he should be perfectly prepared to pass a law by which the colonists should bear the expense, for some time at any rate, of the introduction of steam. This alone was a great grievance. Another subject was that of the waste lands. He differed from his Excellency on this matter. The colony was being robbed by the most reckless profligacy of what ought to be a source of wealth for many years to come. . There were other general questions which * could not be dealt with, such as the limit of the functions of the General and Local Assemblies* a general system of postal communication, the law of marriage, and others, which the General Assembly could alone entertain. It was the Governor's opinion that Provincial Councils would beat suit New Zealand, but he differed from his Excellency in this ; be thought a central Government with, frequent communication was better. He supposed the Governor found v awkward ;to meet the General Assembly^ he had endeavoured to lead in' o collision and dispute the General Assembly and the Provincial Councils, and thus to evade an enquiry which, sooner or later, mutt be made into his conduct. Mr. Stbphxna concurred in the. observations which had been made with respect to the Governor,, and felt he could add little to the remark* on the inconvenience arising fofttt his conduct. He felt that in hit private

capacity no one could act with greater urbr. .ity than Sir George Grey, but with respect to his public conduct, he though t!i< had acted in this instance unconstitutionally if not illegally. He felt that the Provincial Councils were almost paralysed by the no> calling together the General Assembly. Generally speaking the Governor had shown great moral courage in upholding his own opinion against that of the majority of the colonists. He could hardly think that he was afraid to meet the General Assembly, but whatever was his reason for acting as be had done, it was a source of much inconvenience and positive injury to the colony, and deserved censure. Mr. Adams concurred with the Resolu* tion. He had often expressed his regret that the General Assembly had not been convened. He did not think the Governor was justified in appropriating the revenue as he had done, nor was the Council acting legally in adopting the only course which the Governor had thrust upon it. The Resolution was then put and agreed to. The Speaker announced that he bad received a Message from the Superintendent, which he proceeded to road :—: — "Nelson, 1/th February, 1852. "Agreeably to the 27th clause of the Constitution Act, the Superintendent has to propose the following amendments in the Act which has been passed by the Provincial Council, and presented to his Honor for the Governor's assent, intituled, 'An Ordinance to appropriate money to the Public Service for the Province of Nelson, for the year ending the 30th of September, 1854.' "2. The amendments which his Honor proposes are, that in the eighth and ninth lines of clause 1, the words ' ten thousand nine hundred and fifty-three' be expunged, and the words 'eleven thousand two hundred and twenty' he inserted. And that in the items of expenditure, after the words and figures ' Sheriff and Gaol departments, £384,' the following words and figures * Resident Magistrate's department, £267,' be inserted. "3. The above mentioned amendments are proposed for the following reasons, viz. : — If there is no Resident Magistrate in the Province, many mosl important Ordinances will, as the laws at present exist, be inoperative ; as the Resident Magistrate's Ordinance, the Jury Amendment Ordinance, the Militia Ordinance, the Debtor's Writ of Arrest Ordinance, the Licensing Ordinance, the Census Ordinance, the Summary Ejectment Ordinance, a portion of the Constabulary Force and Medical Practitioners' Ordinances, &c. By the non operation of these Ordinances, the most important interests of the Province will be affected ; no jury can be summoned in Supreme Court cases ; no militia can be enrolled ; no local authority will exist to prevent the escape of fraudulent debtors ; no applications can be received for licenses for houses of public entertainment; no Census can be taken ; no authority for the ejectment of persons occupying lands without right or title will exist, &c, &c. ; while hy the suspension of the Licensing Ordinance alone, a loss to the Revenue of the current year of about £500 would arise, and the most serious inconvenience and injury to individuals and the public would prevail from the closing of all houses of accommodation. "4. In addition to the evils which would result from the absence of a Resident Magistrate, as stated above, his Honor has to submit that a fundamental position of the Constitution will be suspended, as the presence of a Resident Magistrate is essential to the formation of the annual Electoral Roll of the Province ; and the Resident Magistrate is also the only Returning Officers to whom & writ could be issued in the event of any vacancy in the Superintendency, the House of Representatives, or the Provincial Council. "5. The Superintendent has also to observe, that in the absence of a Resident Magistrate no local authority would exist for the adjudication of cases affecting persons of the Native Race — a circumstance which at all times would be fraught with evil, and at present, while the partial excitement consequent upon the negotiation for the purchase of Native lands within the Province exists, not entirely unattended with danger. And in connection with this question, his Honor begs respectfully to submit, that should any feeling of irritation occur at the present time amongst the Natives, resulting from a change in the administration of the law to which they are now accustomed, and the causes of which change they would be unable -to comprehend, an impression with respect to the operation of the Constitution Act would in all] probability be created in their minds, certainly unfortunate in its character, and possibly injurious in its consequences. "6. The Superintendent believes that the Provincial Council will, on a consideration of the circumstances stated above, admit that until provision is made for the fulfilment of the duties of Resident Magistrats by some other person, the maintenance of that officer is essential to the peace, order, and good government of the Province; and his Honor will now remark upon the present means of ensuring the presence of such Resident Magistrate. " 7. The present Resident Magistrate, Major Richmond, has resigned bis appointment, and hif resignation was forwarded to the Governor of New Zealand on the 25th of October last, the acceptance of which resignation may daily be expected ; and from the moment that luch

acceptance is received, Major Richmond will cease to be, or to act as Resident Magistrate, in virtue of hia original appointment. "8. If no sum is voted by the Provincial Council as the salary of any Resident Magistrate appointed to succeed Major Richmond, the office of Resident Magistrate will remain unfilled, as his Excellency has never been warned that such salary would not be defrayed from the Provincial Revenue, and cannot therefore have taken any steps to provide for it from other sources. On the contrary, his Excellency is completely justified in concluding that it would he paid from the Provincial Revenue, for the following reasons : — That by despatches from his Excellency, dated respectively, 24th August, 1853, and 29th August, 1853, the Superintendent was informed, that from and after the Ist of September, 1853, the superintendence of certain departments of the public service devolved upon his Honor, who was informed that arrangements were being made for handing over to him from time to time, as they were vacated, the buildings occupied as the offices of these departments. &c,, and that the heads of these departments would be directed to receive their instructions from his Honor from the date t>tated above. -And accordingly, on the 16th of August, his Excellency directed the heads of these departments to receive their instructions from the Superintendent; and on the 30th of August, his Excellency directed that the buildings, furniture, and other articles pertaining to those departments should be delivered up to the Provincial authorities who might be directed to receive them. In conformance with these instructions from bis Excellency, the Superintendent accepted the control of these public departments, of which the Resident Magistrate was one; and on the sth and 21st of last October, his Honor wrote to the heads of all these departments, requesting inventories to be made i out of the building?, &c., belonging to them, duplicates of which inventories were transmitted to his Excellency on the 16th of November. His Honor further informed the heads of I these departments, in circular letters and notices, dated on the 4th and 7ih of January, that these offices, and the other articles in those departments, would be examined and compared with the inventories; and after the examination of these departments by the officer appointed by the Superintendent for that purpose, circular letters were written on the 19th January, to I the heads of these departments, placing them under their charge. "9. Various instructions to all these departments (including the Resident Magistrate's department) have from time to time, as occasion required, been issued by his Honor, and obeyed by the several officers connected withahem. In every way, therefore, the Superintendent has exercised control over these departments transferred to him by his Excellency. Further, the despatch from his Excellency of the 24tb August (previously alluded to), having intimated that the expense of these departments would be borne by the Province, the Superintendent, in a despatch to the Governor, dated the Bth of October, stated to his Excellency that he considered that the expense of these departments would fairly be borne by the Provincial Treasury, with the exception of the salary of the Native Interpreter, hitherto attached to the Resident Magistrate's department, and the salary and contingencies of that portion of the Medical department which relates to the Natives, as the Medical Attendant at Motueka, &c, and requested that the sum of £110 should be remitted from the £7.000 reserved for Native purposes by the Civil Secretary to cover these expenses, as also a further sum for Native purposes generally. " 10. The Superintendent may here observe, that until other provision is made for fulfilling the duties of that office, it is of at least ten times greater benefit to Europeans in the Pro vince than to the Natives, as is evident from a consideration of the facts stated in the commencement of this Message: and moreover, the fees derived from the Resident Magistrate's Court are likely to exceed the whole cost of the department ; and as these fees are by an Ordinance of the Provincial Council paid to the Provincial Revenue, his Excellency might see fit to disallow the Ordinance under which they are so paid, if the expense of the department is not borne by the Province. " 11. From a consideration of the facts stated above, it will be observed that his Excellency has been led to expect that his Excellency's control over the department, and the necessity of providing for its maintenance, has ceased, and as he has bad no warning to the contiary, it will be impossible for him to provide for its maintenance before the period for taking the census, receiving applications for licenses, forming the electoral and militia rolls, &c, for the next.year, has expired. " 12. And his Excellency will be further justified in assuming that the expenses of the Resident Magistrate's department would be defrayed by the Province, as the Superintendent, on receiving despatches from his Excellency with respect to the expense of the departments of Registrar of Deeds, Registrar of the Supreme Court, and Registrar of Births, &c., and also of a portion of the Supreme Court expenses, wrote to his Excellency on the Bth and 25th October, refusin/ to recommend that the expenses of these latter departments should be borne by the Province, because that these last mentioned departments were excepted from the control of the Provincial Government. The despatches from the Governor, and his Honor's reply thereto, were transmitted to the Provincial Council with messages No 8, and it will be within the recollection of the Council that it passed resolutions, dated the 1 6th and 17th of November, relative to these latter departments, to the effect that the

expenses of maintaining them should not he borne by the Provincial Revenue. Copies ol these Resolutions ot the Provincial Council were forwarded by hie Honor to the Governor on the 19th of Novcmbei last, but they contain no intimation to his Excellency, nor did the Superintendent's despatch transmitting them, that the expenses of the Resident Magistrate's department would not be borne by the Province. "13. His Excellency is therefore entirely relieved from all responsibility for the disturbances, injury, and confusion, without a parallel in the history of a Province, that will ensure if no Resident Magistrate is maintained in the Province, during the current financial year ; nor was the Superintended aware that the Council would refuse to maintain the Resident Magistrate's, department on account of which the sum of £53 2s. 6d. has already been paid since the commencement of the financial year. " 14. His Honor consequently respectfully trusts, that on a consideration of all these circumstances, the Provincial Council will deem it expedient td vote the sum required to maintain that department, while at the same time it will,be competent for the Council, should it see fit, to address his Excellency, protesting against any liability for the department after his Excellency has received notice that the Council will not for the future provide from the Provincial Revenue for the salary of the Resident Magistrate, and has had time, in pursuance of uuch notice, to make provision from some other sources for the maintenance of that office. (Signed) "E. W. Stafford, " Superintendent." On the motion of Mr. Parker, the Standing Orders were suspended, to take the Superintendent's message into con* sideration. Dr. Monro moved, " That the Appropriation Bill be returned to his Honor without amendment." He did not consider that any injury or inconvenience would arise to the public service from their not voting a salary for the Resident Magistrate. They could not rescind the decision which they had come to. He held that the Superintendent could appoint provisionally, if there was no Resident Magistrate. Dr. Renwick seconded the motion, because he felt there was no other course open to the Council. The Superintendent would doubtless be in a position of some responsibility, but not more than he ought to incur. If the Superintendent did not appoint a Resident Magistrate, in the event of a vacancy, the responsibility would rest with him. Mr. Elliott felt bound to oppose the motion, but he did so with a feeling of delicacy, seeing that he had originated the Resolution which declared that the Council would not defray the charges of departments excepted from its control ; and in all the divisions which had taken place on the question of voting a salary for the Resident Magistrate, he had gone with the majority. On reflection, however, and on investigating the real merits of the question before them uoore closely than he had pre« viously done, bis opinions on the position in which the Resident Magistrate's department stood had undergone a change, and he would not shrink from making that avowal. The Resident Magistrate's department was not one which ,had been excepted from the control of the Provincial Government, either by the Constitution Act or by the Governor, but, on the contrary, its control had been handed ov«r to the Superintendent by his Excellency in precisely the same manner as the other depart* ments. It was true that the Council had thought proper to omit this department from the Schedule of the Empowering Ordinance, as it had likewise omitted the Harbour Ordinance, but no one had contended from this circumstance that the Harbour department was not under his Honor's control, or that the Pilot and boatmen were not to be paid from the Provincial Revenue. If the Council intended, as it avowed, to go upon principle, they must, with the Resident Magistrate's department, strike the Harbour department out of the Appropriation Bill, as they had no more right to be concerned about the evils which would arise in consequence to the commerce of the port, than the evils in the other case which would arise to the social and political well-being of the Province from closing a Court to which, as the law stood, was alone confided so many important functions. Honourable members however were willing to act with a strange inconsistency with respect to the Resident Magistrate's Court. They would not on any account suffer the department to be named in the Appropriation Ordinance, as by so doing, their vote 6 would be stultified, and yet they had stultified themselves by their votes on the Harbour department without a dissenting voice. Another inconsistency was, that in passing the Empowering Bill, on the motion he believed of the member for Waimea West, they had struck out the Resident Magistrate's department from the schedule, on the ground that the appointment of that officer should not be vested in the Superintendent, who might make the appointment a reward of political partixanship ; while now it was advanced, that in the event of a sudden vacancy occurring, the Superintendent would be bound to fill up temporarily the appointment. But honourable members did not appear to see that they were requiring the Superintendent to do that which they had declared he should not do— ta act illegally, when they had deprived him of a legal power of acting. What wai the nae of aajifif that the Superintendent abeuld fill up tempo-

rarily the office of Resident Magistrate if a sudden vacancy occurred ? He had no power of doing so. Tbe appointment would be illegal, and the Speaker would again assure the Council, as he had done on a former occasion when he bad similarly appealed to him, that a Resident Magistrate co appointed could not exercise the most important functions of tbe office. Unless some better mode of communicating with the seat of Government was established than at present existed, it might therefore happen on such a vacancy occurring in the Resident Magistracy, that very serious inconvenience to the public service would arise before a successor could be appointed ; and with regard to the department as it now 6tood, the present officer bad resigned, and the next mail would be tolerably sure to bring intelligence that his resignation had been accepted. On receiving this intimation, Major Richmond would cease to be tbe Resident Magistrate, and could no longer act in that capacity, even if desirous of doing so, unless reappointed. But with this intelligence would come the appointment of a successor, who would find however that no salary was voted for him. for the Superintendent had shown by his Message that, not anticipating the decision of the Council, he had never apprised the Governor that the department would be unprovided for by the Province. Whatever might be the opinion of the Council as to paying the department ultimately, it should at least make a provision for it until the Governor could be apprised of the position in which it stood, and he could not but think it wasjbeir duty, under all circumstances, to vote the expenses of the department for the remaining six months of the financial year, even if they did so under protest. If this was not done, and the public service should in consequence suffer, the responsibility would not rest upon the Governor for having failed to make a provision for the office, but on the Council, who knowing that no such provision was made, had still refused to sanction one.

Mr. Saxton remarked upon the Message, that the Resident Magistrate's department had been specially excepted from all recognition by that Council, as to any money payments. This feeling had been most decidedly expressed, by arguments, by resolution, and still more emphatically by the exclusion of all allusion to it in the lately enacted Empowering Ordinance. Amongst other arguments it had been urged that it was every way undesirable that either the Superintendent himself, or any person nominated by him, should 611 the office of Resident Magistrate. It was one consequence of the introduction of the elective principle, that Superintendents might occasionally be elected after a severe struggle, and it was but natural, under such circumstances, that a Superintendent should prefer and appoint some particular friend or supporter. Although it was quite possible that a Superintendent might rise superior to such feelings, and also that his nominee might be equally disinterested, yet there would always be the possibility of such a bias, and nothing could be less conducive to the satisfactory administration of public justice, than any opportunity being allowed for such party appointments. It could not indeed be asserted that such an evil would inevitably result, but there was certainly the possibility of it, and it was only prudent to guard against the possibility of such an event. It was not merely sufficient that no abuse could be proved, but it was also very desirable that there should be no suspicion of it, and that parties bringing their cases before such a tribunal should be without any reasonable grounds for such a suspicion. It seemed to be in fact, much more desirable that such an appointment should in all cases emanate from the Crown, it had now been advanced as a plea for making some provision for this department, that the Empowering Ordinance had been passed so very lately, that it was therefore impossible that any warning cou'.d have been given to the Governor that no provision for this department would be made by that Council. (It bad also even been urged, that the Governor was not competent to make such a provision. It would be his duty to shew, that neither of these considerations were of any weight, and that if such pleas were to be at all advanced by tbe Governor, or, on his behalf, by any other person, that he would only be placed in the position of having attempted to obtain money by false pretences, an imputation which, he believed, no member there would be disposed willingly to make. He would refer the Council to the small book which he held in his hand, entitled, "The Nevr Zealand Constitution Act, together with correspondence between the Secretary of State for the Colonies, and the Governor-in Chief of New Zealand, in explanation thereof." This book had been printed by what might fairly be termed the official or Government press of the colony, and had therefore, most likely, been compiled and published under the actual eye and approval of tbe ■Governor himself. The Constitution Act would be found to end with an appended schedule of the reserved Civil List, of which tbe followiog was the concluding item— "Native purposes, £7,000. With regard to this particular sum, Sir George Grey thus himself wrote and suggested, (pages 60, 61.) "I beg therefore most •earnestly to recommend that from the Revenues of the Northern Province there should be reserved a furthur sum of £4,000; from the revenue of the Wellington Province a sum of £2,000 ; and from the revenues of the three Southern Provinces a sum of £1,000; making in the whole an annual ■mount of £7,000, which the Governor hhould be authorised to apply, together with any surplus that might accrue from tbe Civil List, to any of tbe.following purposes," &c. Amongst these purposes, immediately •after specified, it distinctly named—" For the payment of Resident Magistrates, and of Native

Magistrates." In answer to this distinct pro* posal of Sir George Grey, the Secretary of State for the Colonies thus remarks, (page 68), " In fixing the sums thus reserved, her Majesty's Government has been guided by tbe information which you have yourself supplied." "The sum defined as for the 'Establishment of the General Government,' and that for • Native purposes,' you are empowered to appropriate in such manner as you may yourself think fit, taking care to keep the Secretary of State fully informed of the details of such appropriation, as well a 8 to render accounts of them in the manner prescribed by section 65." From this correspondence it would clearly appear that there was not the least necessity for our warning Sir George Grey that he would have to make provision for the Resident Magistrates. He had himself considered the question, and had him self proposed the appropriation and mode of payment; and had, in accordance, received an authority to act as he had recommended. This would entirely refute the idea that the Governor was not competent to make such a provision, and we had no right to suppose that the obligation would be unattended to. The resignation of Major Richmond had been sent in, and there was no doubt that when its acceptance was notified some other person would be appointed, and would supply the vacancy. It was true that Sir George Grey was gone from the Colony, but there still remained the Actint Governor, and he would be sure, if he used his powers, either to select some person himself, or to appoint some person who had been recommended to him, and he would also, no doubt, «ive to that person a sufficient assurance of remuneration. There seemed to be little or no reason for apprehending any of the serious consequences which had been predicted, but whether such evils occurred or otherwise, there was no responsibility resting upon that Council. If other persons neglected their duty, it was not, consequently, incumbent upon that Council to supply their omissions. With regard to the Message immediately under consideration, he regretted that it exhibited no disposition on Ihe part of his Honor to accept the opportunity of compromise which had been offered to him. The phrase Magistrate's Department which had been suggested, seemed to include within it not only the idea contended for by his Honor, but also that which would be entirely satisfactory to the Council. He regretted also to observe that there was throughout it, an entire omission of any recognition of the strongly and often expressed feelings of that Council. Not once, merely, but several times, that Message assured the Council, that no warning had been conveyed to the Governor of the determination of that Council not to pay, or to make any provision for a Resident Magistrate, and yet it had been argued that the Governor would be justified in expecting that such a provision would be made by the Province, because such a warning had not been given. However much the Council might have desired that such a warning should be given, it plainly appeared that no such warning had been conveyed, and it moreover appeared from the Message, as far as he could understand it, that £53 had been already actually paid on account of that department, not only without any authority for it, but really in opposition to, and in contravention of the expressed resolution of that Council. Such was his own present impression of it, and if that iropreß.-ion could be satisfactorily removed, he should be much plsaeed, and would gladly bear it proved that the impression was a wrong one. There were other remarks which the Message rather called for, but which he felt indisposed I to press, as he considered that the main points had been noticed, and he would only repeat that there seemed to be little occasion to feel either anxiety or responsibility in the matter, as the means were already provided, and retained, from the revenues of the Province, and that there was every probability that the difficulty would be met.

Mr. Stephens thougt at first some difficulty had arisen, from some fresh observations made by his Honor. Upon hearing the Message read a second time, the difficulty vanished, and he thought they had committed themselves so deeply that they could not recede. It was contrary to his idea thai the Governor shonld have placed the Resident Magistrate's department under tbe control of the Superintendent. He thought the argument of Mr. Elliott fell to the ground. He considered the Governor committed an illegal act in the first instance by giving over the department. The Governor had done wrong in not calling together the General Assembly, which was the properauthority to deal with it.

Mr. Adams, in reply to Mr. Stephens, thought the Governor was justified in placing the Resident Magistrate's department under the control of the Superintendent. He could not conceive why they should agree to pay the Pilot and not the Resident Magistrate. He conceived if one was under the control of the Superintendent, so also was the other. He agreed with Mr. Saxton, that tbe salary of the Resident Magistrate should be paid from the fund provided for Native purposes. If there was no Resident Magistrate, there could be no licenses granted to publicans. Mr. Saxton had stated that £53 bad been paid to this department without the consent of the Council; but such was not the case, at he bad asked for and obtained a vote in aid for tbe departments under tbe control of tbe Superintendent, and this he considered was one of them. He thought the Council would not be justified in refusing to pay a Resident Magistrate until the salary should be provided for from another source.

Upon a division, the motion of Dr. Monro iraa carried. There appeared, Ayes — Messrs. Renwick, Sixton, Basb, Monro, Hough, Bai-

gent, Stephens ; Noea — Messrs. Adams, Elliott, Parker.

Mr. Adams moved the adoption ef the Amendment proposed by his Honor in the Immigration Bill, which was seconded by Dr. Monro, and agreed to.

Dr. Rt nwick moved the following resolution, "That in dispensing the various sums as set forth in the Appropriation Bill this Council are of opinion that the Estimates laid before it, as amended in the details thereof, should be adhered to as closely as is consistent with the public service, at well as in keeping up the due efficiency of the usual public departments therein especially provided for ." Mr. Stephens seconded tbe motion. Agreed to. Dr. Monro moved, that the Council do adjourn till that day fortnight.

Mr. Stephens moved, as an amendment that the Council do adjourn till next Tuesday week.

Upon a division, the amendment was carried. There appeared, Ayes— Messrs. Adams, Bush, Renwick, Elliott, Stephens ; Noes — Messrs, Monro, Hough, Baigent, Parker.

The Council then adjourned till Tuesday, the 28th February.