(From the Supplement of the New Zealander, Aug. 11.) HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume XIII, Issue 1367, 8 September 1858, Page 4

(From the Supplement of the New Zealander, Aug. 11.) HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

THURSDAY, AUGUST 5, 1858. THE NEW PROVINCES BILL. ADJOURNED DEBATE. (Continued frost our tael numbir.) Mr. Beckham had nat heard any reason advanced against the measure, although be bad listened very attentively. It was complained that it bad not been introduced at the right time; but he would aak was there any specified time for the introduction of Bills—if the measure were a good one, surely no time could be inappropriate. Another objection was that the Wellington members were absent; but to carry out that argument the H onse ought not to pass any measures at all. The hon. member for Christchurch (Mr. Packer) instead returning to his constituents empty handed, could return to them with this excellent and beneficial measure. They had received a very strange definition of local self-government from one hon. member—namely, the establishment of Local Boards, by which the people could tax themselves and spend their money. The case of Taranaki had been quoted as an argument against Provinces; butthat Province was not a case in point at all: for the new Provinces would have a large land fund at their disposal, which Taranaki had not. Ab for the objection that the Government wore grasping for power, it was quite untenable; for the power was left in the hands of the people. The Government were bestowing power, not taking it away. He could give the Bill his unqualified support. Mr. STArronn would have been unwilling to trespass on the time of the House but for the importance of the principle involved in the Bill, which wae one of the most important measures of the Session. (Hear, bear.) It had been well said by the last speaker, and the member for the Southern Division, that throughout the discussion, no arguments, properly so called, had been ad. vanced against the measure; and he felt it unnecessary to say much in support of tbe arguments which had been urged in its favour. It would have been quite sufficient to have laid the Bill on the table and allowed it to speak for itself. When he heard the position taken np by some hon. members who, themselves enjoying tile utmost extent of local self-government, were disposed to deny it to their less fortunate neighbours—taking their stand against those very principles they had so long and warmly advocated,—he felt n painful sympathy for them, (Hear.) He could well understand their faltering accents as they doled out their complaints that the Bill Was interfering with the vested rights of existing Provinces. But most of all was lie sorry for the hon. member for tile Pensioner Settlements (Mr. Williiunscn) —a gentleman to whom he generally listened

with the greatest respect, but to whom he had that day listened with pain, with pity, bo consistent was that hon. member in his general advocacy of local self-go-vernment.—-(Mr. Williamson: Hear, hear.] —What, however, did he argue against this Bill? “It would interfere with tho plans of the Superintendents for promoting colonization”:—not a word for the poor settlers in outlying districts, cut off from all communication with the capital. (Hear.) The member for the Pensioner Settlements had spoken of Superintendents who had played strange freaks, and of one who had addressed his Council sitting. (Hear, hear.) Weil, he (Mr. S.) knew a Superintendent of Nelson who played strange freaks of that kind (hear), and be was not surprised at it —for it was the natural consequence of power to turn one’s head—(hear). He knew all the Superintendents of New Zealand, past and present. Among them were many of the ablest men in the Colony (hear); but there was not one of them came out of office half as good a man as he went into it (hear, hear). He was ready to admit the justice of the remark that the greater portion of the revenue was expended on the neighbourhood of the centre or capital of a Province: for he knew the great difficulty there was when he was Superintendent of Nelson, in getting justice done to the Wairau (laughter). An objection was taken to the small amount of population proposed to be required as the basis of a new Province; yet neither Nelson or Otago had more than 1000 population when first erected into Provinces. (Hear.) The arguments of hon. members against the Bill, —that the Colony was not yet in a position for it, and so on, —reminded him of the good old times in the House of Commons, when hon. members discussed every measure under the influence of goad old port, and weighing every scheme of reform by their antiquated prejudices, pronounced it “premature.” The same course was being pursued now with respect to this Bill; but so far from being premature, he said that if not passed now,*it would soon be too late (cheers and counter cheers) —for all the Crown land would be sold and tbe Provinces loaded with debt, and these new districts would be offered the mockery of local self government without the means of carrying it on (hear, hear). But it was said that there was no evidence that this bill was required, even in tbe case of Hawke's Bay. Why was there not the petition of the settlers of Ahuriri, which had been printed and circulated for the last five months, and with which hon. members might have made themselves acquainted if they had chosen—[Here the Colonial Secretary read some passages from this petition, in support of the principle of the bill.] —‘As to the allegation that tbe present Ministry were hostile to the Provincial Governments, what, he would ask, had been their course since they came into power, and what was his. own .course before coming into office—what did he himself do last session ? He succeeded in passing a Land Act which gave to tbe Provinces the whole of their lands, with full powers of administration and disposal of the land revenue (hear). He and Iris colleagues carried the principle of local self-government as far as they could; they carried it to the Provinces then—they now carried it further, and proposed to give it to the outlying districts of those Provinces (hear, hear). Last session they had this impediment standing in their way—every measure for the alteration of tbe Constitution had to be sent home for Her Majesty's assent; now the Assembly was vested With powers to make such changes as were deemed necessary (certain matters excepted) without this delay having to be undergone. Tbe hon. member for Christchurch stated that Ministers had brought in a “ startling novelty well, they had done many startling things since they had been in office, —would perhaps do more, and Were not to be dismayed from pursuing the course they felt to be right by the cry of “ startling novelty." (Hear.) It was said, however, that this measure was not expected, and therefore ought not to have been brought in. Why, he (Mr. S.) had himself Written a letter to the Ahuriri petitioners, in which he promised to bring forward a measure for giving them local self-government.— [The Colonial Secretary was proceeding to quote from the letter, when Mr. Ollivier observed that the letter had not been laid on the table. The Colonial Secretary replied that the letter had been printed in the Hawke't Bay Hers Id and copied into most of tbe Colonial papers, without any exception ever being taken to it, not even through that most convenient means of running down any good movement, the anonymous letter. The hon. gentleman proceeded]: Since that letter was published, both political parties in Wellington have been profuse in their offers of local selfgovernment to the people of Ahuriri, who very naturally said to them, “Thank you for nothing. We do not now want your Local Boards, with power to tax ourselves for necessary improvements, while you keep from us our just share of the revenue you derive from the ■ gale of our lands. We will go to the General Assembly for Separation, With full powers of local government, and to receive the entire control and disposal of the revenue from waste lauds.” (Hear, hear.) The Assembly was about to grant that request, and he had no fear that Hawke’s Bay was ever likely to be in the position of a “ pauper Province,” as feared by some hon. members, or even to want the means of inducing a healthy influx of immigration to its shores. (Hear.) New Plymouth it was true, was in a depressed condition ; but would it have been so could it have obtained more land (?) —[The Colonial Secretary proceeded to comment on the arguments advanced by opponents of the bill, but in so discursive a manner we could only here and there gather the gist of the sarcasm and satire in which he was apparently dealing].—The hon. member for Christchurch (Mr. Ollivier) was surprised that ministers should introduce a bill for erecting new Provinces, with Superintendents and other Government oflloers after having promised a Municipal Bill. Well, if the House chose, Ministers would meet this objection by calling the Superintendents Mayors, Councillors Wardens, and so on, and the Province should be a Municipality ; but for all this, they would give these new d stricts thenland fund, and their share of customs revenue; and there was the promised Municipal Bill. Would that satisfy hon. members opposite? This cry about Municipalities and the absence of Wellington Members were the only two actual arguments adduced against the Bill (oh, oh), and as to the latter, he would not do them the injustice to believe that the Wellington men —who had been all their lives calling out for Local Self-Government—would, if they had been present, have opposed thia privilege being granted to Hawke's Bay (hear, and oh I): he left that to be said for them by their professed Mends (hear, hear). The House, moreover, had passed 80 bills this session, many of them of great importance, and all more or less affecting the welfare of Wellington as well as the rest of the Colony—yet who had ever protested against this vast amount of business being forwarded because of the absence of the members for Wellington (hear) ? and why was that plea to be now urged at the very fag end of the session (hear, hear) ? Besides, who kept them away ? * whose fault was that (hear) ? who kept away two of its representatives, one in either house, Mr. Fox and Mr. Johnston—-from having been present now (hear) ? Hecould tell those gentlemen who urged the absence of the Wellington members as a reason for delay, that, but for their absence, this measure would have been brought forward at a much earlier period of the session (hear, hear). Ministers well knew what a Superintendent would think of this Bill (hear, and laughter) : yet they deliberately waited for one Superinten-dent-Canterbury ; they induced another—Otago— to give np his passage in the “ White Swan they allowed one of the most ardent supporters of the measure, Mr. Weld, (who knew all the heads of the bill, and whose greet regret in leaving was that he could not assist in passing this bill) to depart from the Colony; and they also suffered Mr. Henderson, who as a plain practical com-mon-Bense man, must have supported tbe bill [Mr. Daldy: No, no!—Mr. Graham: Yes, yes!—Mr. Stafford: Well, I will not claim him for our side then, but I will not allow anybody else to claim him against us.] —They did all this before they brought in the bill. Was this like taking tho House by surprise (hear, hear) ? He regretted to hear the hon. member for Christchurch speak of the proposed alterations as having been made to catch “ stray votesthere had been nothing of the kind attempted or thought of; and he (Mr. S.) inust «ay that he had never known of a single vote being given by any member of that House without due consideration, or on the conviction that it would be for the general good (hear, hear). —[The Colonial Secretary proceeded to criticize the members for Canterbury for . their opposition; but his version oftheir argument’s and words was so frequently caVed in question by those gentlemen, that it would be impossible to represent either party fairly.] Ministers had been charged with a desire to crush the Provincial Governments, whilethey were actually proposing to give these new Superintendents all the constitutional powers exercised by the existing ones (hear). And sb to their creating two kinds of Provinces, with different powers of legislation, were there not already six Provinces which had assumed very different powers of legislation? (hear, hear)—[Having remarked on one or two of the arguments urged by Messrs. Daldy and Williamson, the Colonial Secretary continued]Had Ministers ever shown any fear of either of the “ big Provinces ” of Wellington or Auckland ? Their first net after coming into office bad been to disallow four of the Acts of the former Government; they had been undeterred by the fierce words and writ ingof that big and blustering Province and its unscrupulous President; they had not heeded any of tbe incessant attacks of the organ of that Government; and , though exposed to the criticism of tho greater portion of lhe press of the Colony, and with no organ to defend them, they had quietly pursued the course they felt to be right. In Auckland, again, when circumstances occurred, to which be need not more particularly refer,

they showed neither fear nor affection for either party. [Mr. Daldy : Binary Writs to wit.] —Their measures had not (we understood) improved his own popularity in his own old Province of Nelson. The Superintendent of Canterbury had charged them with waiting an opportunity to divide up the Provinces: He (Mr. S.) would only say that Ministers had not been afraid to disagree with that hon. member’s predecessor (Mr. Fitzgerald)—one of the ablest men the Colony bad known—and they were therefore not very likely to be deterred from attempting such ft measure, if they thought it requisite, by any fear of tbe hon. member—[Mr. Moorhouse : Hear, hear.] —Upon the oue argument of the hon, member for the Southern Division (Captain Haultain) against the Bill, he would only observe that on further consideration, that hon member would see that the House hail no need to delay on account of the absence of the Wellington members (who had no legitimate interest in the question) : but were bound to consider the interests of those who were unrepresented in that House. He said unrepresented t because though Hawke’s Bay and Wairarapa were joined in one electoral district yet the latter had 3-slns of the constituency to the 2-sths of Hawke’s Bay; so that, although by an extraordinary “ fluke,’’ last Session, Mr. Valentine Smith was returned, who did actually represent Hawke’s Bay, but not Wairarapa, (and who had been most anxious tn have such a measure as this introduced) there was no probability that Hawke’s Bay would again have such a chance under tbe existing electoral division of the Province of Wellington. In conclusion, be considered it the duty of a Constitutional Ministry to introduce such a measure as the present, because it was necessary for the present and future well-being of the Colony; and that would be the position htf and his colleagues would take up and maintain so long as they had the honour of holding office, to whatever misapprehension or unpopularity such a course might expose them. (Cheers). ’ .. . Mr. Hall said the speech they had just heard was one which, if he had had his eyes >hut, he could at once have told was addressed to an overflowing gallery; this accounted for the Colonial Secretary s zeal in favour of popular rights, and for his sudden sympathy for the industrious dwellers in the wilderness, and the hardy sons of toil about whom lie had talked so much. But for a full gallery nothing would have been heard of this from the hon. gentleman. ’I he Colonial Secretary was in the constant habit of distorting and misrepresenting the speeches of his opponents, but on no occasion had he done so more glaringly or industriously than that evening. The objections to the stateof the member for Christchurch Country District as to the introduction of the Bill before the House was a mere unworthy quibble. The assertion, in answer to the same member that evidence with regard to the case of Hawke’s Bay had been before the House, was unfounded; the petition from that District, the statements of which were necessarily ex parte, was the only document on the table; the answer to the Petition quoted that night had been kept back; the figures referred to by the Colonial Secretary were not to be found in any papers before the House, and could not be tested. The part of the Colonial Secretary’s Speech, which did not consist of a misrepresentation of his opponents, was simply devoted to a glorification of himself and his Government. It consisted of boasts of the startling novelties he had produced, of the way in which the Government had flown at the different Superintendents, including the ablest of them all, the late Superintendent of Canterbury. Of the latter effort, the Government could not boast much, for the Superintendent in question had shaken off his assailants as a stag shook off a hound ; the same result would follow whenever they again ventured to attack him. In the couise of the debate it had been often asserted that the opponents of this particular Bill must be opponent of the principle of Local Self-Government* It had been his fate to listen on many occasions to a good deal of claptrap, but any claptrap more bold, reckless or nonsensical than this, he had never heard either in that House or out of it. It was not only not the.fact, but was directly opposed to the fact . For his own part ever since he bad taken any part in the public affairs vf New Zealand, he had been a strenuous advocate of the principle of Local Self-Government. He believed that this princi,le had done very much to training our forefathers in the right use of representative institutions, that to it was owing the eminent success with which these institutions were worked by the AngloSaxon race, and the amount of real liberty which now existed in our own Mother Country. He believed that owing to the peculiar circumstances of New Zealand the extensive application of this principle was urgently called for, that in fact it was doubtful whether without it Representative Government would work successfully at all. He also prized institutions of Local Self-Government, because they were conservative elements in a very democratic constitution. If any person asserted that he voted against the present Bill, because he was an enemy to Local Self-Government, he asserted what was absolutely unfounded and false. He (Mr. H-) was inclined to admit that tbe means by which this valuable principle should be extended in New Zealand was an increase, as occasion should require, of the number of Provinces at present existing. In some cases perhaps municipal institutions might suflice, but in the majority of instances owing to the extent of territory to be governed and other circumstances fairly stated by the Colonial Treasurer, it would be better to make entirely separate Provinces. He did not assume that the working of Provincial Institutions had been faultless, there might in some cases have been an attempt at parade and an assumption of dignity, which bad been facetiously called a putting on of u cocked hat and feathers.” A prominent instance was that of the Colonial Secretary himself when Superintendentof Nelson. Healone, of all tbe Superintendents, when called upon to address an assembly of gentlemen sent by the electors to represent them in the Provincial Council, had thought it beneath his dignity to stand up, and had remained seated when delivering his speech. Tbe courtesy of this proceeding was on a par with that shewn by the hon- member, in the present and former debates, to members sitting on the blue bench. Such conduct, properly termed Provincial arrogance, could not be put down by ; any law such as that now proposed ; it would be put down by the good sense of the Colonists generally; in fact the derision with which the hon. gentleman’s proceeding was treated in many parts of the Colony had probably induced him to discontinue it. Upon the whole the Provincial Governments had conferred benefits upon the Colony, which considering the absence of previous experience on the part of many of those who were called on to administer them, and difficulties they had to contend with, were exceedingly great. He believed that to increase the number of Provinces, as wealth and population increased, in those districts which by natural boundaries, separate local interests, a separate centre of communication and other circumstances, appeared carved by nature Into separate Provinces, was the legitimate development of the Constitution Act. This, however, was not the question involved in the Ministerial proposal; it asked tbe General Assembly to abdicate the trust confided to it by the Imperial Parliament, of deciding from time to time whether circumstances called for the establishment of a separate Province, and to transfer this power to the Governor in Council.. The member for the Waimea had attempted to justify this by asserting that legislation by Ministers was in reality legislation by the General Assembly. If this were true, why should the same principle not be applied to other less important matters, and hon. members having indicated the subjects on which they desired legislation to proceed, and empowered ministers accordingly, be enabled to return to their homes in four weeks instead of four months. A perusal of the Constitution Act shewed clearly the importance attached by the Imperial Parliament to this power of creating new Provinces. It whs in the G9th section specially entrusted to the General Assembly, and all Acts passed in the exercise of it were to be reserved for the Queen’s assent. The power was too great to trust to any Ministry, especially in New Zealand, where it was admitted that at the present time we had got responsible Government in name only ; if the House should disapprove, of the manner in which the present Ministers exercised their powers, it could not remove them, because successors would not be forthcoming; the Colonial Treasurer had staled under existing circumstances even the rejection of the present measure would not involve tbe resignation of Ministers, He.(Mr. H.) believed that was a right course, but it shewed that the legislature had at present no control over tbe manner in which the Government used its power. A reference to the Bill shewed to his mind that the present advisers of his Excellency were almost the last to whom the power asked for should be granted. The Bill transferred, in tbe case of new Provinces, all the powers of the Superintendent to thd Governor, with a right to delegate them to any person he thought proper. So that the new Superintendents could only deal with roads, bridges, and other matters of purely local interest, if allowed to do.so at all, as the agents of the Governor, This appeared to be

what the present advisers of his Excellency meant by local Self-Government. The Colonial Treasurer had stated that in committee he should be prepared to give up the veto reserved to the Governor. He had, however, given no pledge that the Government would Insist on this alteration as indispensable to passing the Bill; he (Mr. H.) believed that if it went into committee at all, it would in all probability become law in its present shape. But the removal of the veto, even if acceded to, and the giving to districts answering to a few specified conditions, an absolute right to separation raised objections of another kind. It was impossible by a few stiff and starched rules, to deal properly with all cases in which the establishment of a new r Province might be desirable or desired. It should be made to depend on a variety of considerations (some of which, as the wealth of the district and its ability to support a separate Government, were not alluded to in a Bill), and on a combination of these that could not be described in a clause of an Act of Parliament. Some cases in which separation might work beneficially would be excluded by the restrictions laid down, while they would admit others in which that House would probably have thought it unwise to establish a separate Provincial Governmentl—- — place it in the power of 150 electors at one end of a Province to insist on its separation, would not, as had been asserted, induce the government of that Province to be considerate towards its remoter districts ; it was obvious that a number of persons would always be found desirous of getting the government of such a district into their own hands as soon as the population amounted to 1000 souls, and would present a petition to the Governor for its separation ; its severance, therefore, would depend ou the increase of its population, and not on the care with which it was treated by the Provincial Government. A powerful inducement to considerate treatment of the extremities of Provinces was thus put an end to. The only safe and proper course appeared to be for the General Assembly to retain in its own hand the task of deciding in what cases new Provinces should or should not be established. The ministerial proposal seemed to him to originate in a want of confidence as to the manner in which the Assembly would discharge thratrust; he (Mr. Hall) believed there was no reason to doubt the impartiality or the prudence of that body. He therefore protested against the abdication of a power which they were bound to exercise for the benefit of their constituents, and to hand unimpaired to their successors. Some of the reasons given by the Colonial Treasurer why members should support the second reading were remarkable. He asked for the votes of the Canterbury renresentatives because the bill would not affect their own Province, inferring that it was this consideration, and not the good of the Colony generally, which determined their voles. He (Mr. H.) felt sorry that the hon. member had formed such an opinion of the members of his Province; it was one which their conduct had not merited. To the Auckland members a tempting bait was held out. Ibe Colonial Treasurer pronounced the differences about the seat of Governmeut to be merely a contest between two powerful Provinces : that their subdivision would put an end to the struggle, and leave Auckland in the position of pre-eminence which was her due. He dissented altogether from this anticipation ; but in any case, he believed the Government would be disappointed in catching any Auckland votes by it. The time at which this measure, described by the Colonial Treasurer himself as the most important of the session, had been brought forward, was most objectionable. It ought to have been announced under circumstances affording the fullest opportunity for its deliberate consideration. To keep it back until the last hour of a long session, until the Isst mail had left for the bomb, and until no expression of public opinion could be obtained on the subject, and to press it through in the absence of so large a proportion of members of that House, was unjust to the Colony at large. He protested.against the doctrine of the member for Nelson that it wasright to take advantage of that abs. nee in order to get the bill p-issed because Jt wou'd, as he thought, be a benefit to the Colony, lhe same principle would justify the Representatives from any two Provinces, which by a thin attandance in that House happened to be placed in a majority, in voting to their constituents, advantages, which they might consider fair and just, but which were in reality monstrously unjust. Ihe impropriety of such a proceeding wou.d be obvious. The absence of Wellington members at the present time was not a circuma’ance for which the late members were to blame; they had tendered their resignations at the earliest period after the expiration of last session at which they could do so. The fact that Wellington was at present unrepresented was attributable to the short time allowed by the Government for the return of the writs. It was most unfair to take advantage of that circumstance to pass a measure which would be rejected in a fuller house. When he was induced to assist in forming a quorum at the commencement of the session, it was under the belief that the Ministry would not press on any important constitutional changes without permitting them to be fairly considered by the Colony. If the result of the session should be a radical alteration in the Constitution—opposed, as he felt assured, to the general wishes of the Colonists, he should deeply regret having assisted at its formation. (To be continued.)