MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN

Xev. J. H. Hobbs. 5 Oct. 1860.

238. Mr. Fox.] Are you acquainted with Mr. Fenton otherwise than by means of his report * —I have no acquaintance with Mr. Fenton ; I judge from the spirit and manner and contents of his report. 239. Have you been acquainted with Mr. Fenton's proceedings in the Waikato District otherwise than through his report attention was directed to them from a memorandum of Mr. Fenton's, which was transmitted to me by Mr. Gisborne. 240. Chairman.] At what time was that sent to you?—l cannot exactly say; it was perhaps 3 or 4 years ago : I find that documents are not transmitted as regularly as they should be ; I know the Maori Messenger to have been a twelve-month old before they were circulated. 241. Was that Memorandum Mr. Fenton's statement of the «. ensus?—lt contained the Census; it was the one which related to the causes of decrease among the Native people. 242. Do you remember seeing any Memorandum of Mr. Fenton's relating to individualisation of Native Title ?—I think the paper containing the Census related to that subject, 243. Mr. Forsaith.] Assuming that some of the older chiefs of Waikato, including Potatau, were suspicious of Mr. Fenton's proceedings, and in consequence were opposed to him ; in your opinion would it have been dangerous to have persevered in face of such opposition?— Not at all : I should have persevered as a Missionary; I have been accustomed to such opposition; Missionary work is all swimming against the tide, 244. Were you acquainted with the late chief Potatau? —I had no particular acquaintance with him. 245. Then you are perhaps hardly prepared to give an opinion as to his influence in Waikato ? —I only judge from analogy ; I should say his influence was considerable, but being old, he would use the common expression among them, "that his teeth had dropped out." 246. Mr. Heale.] Do you think th3t the older chiefs would dread loss of influence from the introduction of such institutions as proposed by Mr. Fenton, and would be likely to endeavour to check it by counter movement? - From Potatau's own expression I should think he would have yielded to the younger chiefs. He often said, "I am nothing but a snail, what can a snail do," and such expressions. I am of opinion that the old chief's generally were so pleased at being presidents of the village councils, that they were quite happy to see the younger men prosperous. It appears to me that Te Heu Heu, from a distance, had increased his influence from the cessation of anything like opposition by the Queen movement, as it was then progressing. When the Queen movement ceased, Te Heu Fleu had brought clown his influence which then pervaded the country ; but 1 am rather speaking in the dark, not being aware of the causes which led to Mr. Fenton's removal. 247. Might an opposition from old chiefs be of importance, though not loudly or publiclyexpressed ?—lt might have been of importance, but it would not have succeeded, I think. 248. Do you apprehend that an active and apparently very earnest suppoit to an European Magistrate given by the younger resident Natives, might entirely fail and be withdrawn in the presence of the old chief's?—No; but Mr. Fenton's Court coadjutors were of the middle aged and influential class. 249. Was there any opinion as far as you know, among the Native tribes in the North, that Mr. Fenton's proceedings under the actual circumstances at that time, if persisted in, might have led to an outbreak. —No. It is greatly to the interest of the Northern Natives to support the Government, since the Waikato Natives and the Natives of the 'jouth generally have become well armed. The Natives of the North are always remembering what they did in the South, and I have often heard them express great anxiety lest the Southern Natives, if they formed a kind of kingdom, would come down on them. The Northern Natives having been the conquerors of the Southern when the former bad arms and the others none, and having committed great outrages there, are now afraid, that now the Southern Natives are better armed, they would if any general disturbance occurred, come down on them for retribution. I have known an old chief come into my verandah, in a state of much anxiety, and pray me to use my influence with the Government to prevent anything of the sort. 250. Do you think that it would be desirable or practicable to try and introduce such a system as Mr. Fenton- attempted at Waikato, among the Northern tribes, the Ngapuhi for instance?—l think it might be desirable to keep it in view, but not particularly to press it. To keep it in view, in order that it might be introduced when the state of the Native mind in the North was the same as that of the Waikato people at the time Mr. Fenton was there. All depends on the man who has to work the business, 251. Mr. Williamson.] Will you state to the Committee more particularly what you mean when you speak of the mind of the Waikato people ?—The Waikato Natives appear to have been disposed to adopt the plans proposed by Mr. Fenton. One of them said, " Christianity was proposed to us, and we adopted it; it was taught to us, and now we are employed to teach it: so equally let us adopt law." This expression made in Mr. Fenton's presence was Native all over. 252. Mr. Domett.] Have not the Ngapuhi people felt the want of law and order, since the Europeans came in contact, with them, as much as the Waikato have?—l will endeavour to give an answer by an illustration ; some years ago the Government wished to employ Makaore Taonui, but it excited such jealousy among others, as for instance Patuone, that it had to be discontinued. As I said before, the object of introducing law and order should be kept in view, and it might with caution be perhaps attempted at once. If jealousies were excited among the c.iefs, it might happen that conflicts would arise, and they might even proceed to fight each other, as was done in the case of Wi Repa in 1845. I mention this to show that anything which touches their pride might upset the whole attempt.

16