E—No. 8

His Excellency: If you mean the disputed land, an investigation will take place. Tipene: That is well; let also the other land, Tataraimaka, be investigated. His Excellency: We can have no dispute about the Tataraimaka block. That is ours. Tipene: Let the man who takes it be tried. That is a good plan for lands which are disputed, let a trial take place. His Excellency: Under the new regulations, the Runangas will hold such investigations. Tipene: If there is any Maori land at Waitara occupied by the Pakeha, let the case be tried; and if there is any land of the Europeans occupied by the Natives, let it be also tried. We have heard that soldiers ivill be sent on the road (Tataraimaka); it is that which creates fear. Keep it open. His Excellency: You had better distinctly understand, that if the people along the sea coast interfere with that block, or use threatening language, I will place soldiers there. Tipene : What, because they hold fast their design ? I will now return to the plunder. Plunder is plunder ; a man is a man ; and death is death. If that question has to be settled by the Runanga, it is well. His Excellency : I do not promise to be satisfied without the stock is given up. I do not think I shall be satisfied. I must have an enquiry before I can say what I will do. Tipene : I have not yet enquired about that plunder, that I might Bay whether the men who took the plunder are right or otherwise. His Excellency: I can only say that if I catch any one with stolen property, he will have to be tried. I am told they, the thieves, keep the stock openly. Tipene : If any of the property is still remaining, well ; let it be returned. His Excellency : I will go down and investigate it all quietly. I shall not be in a hurry. Tipene : Perhaps some of that plunder belongs to us (Waikato.) If any cattle, horses, or other property be still remaining, some of it belongs to us. It is about what is left that you are speaking? His Excellency : I understand that the Ngatiruanuis are in quite a different position to others. They killed women and children, and burnt houses, and plundered. I have not enquired into the matter, but from what I hear, if I were a friend, as you are, going to speak to the Ngatiruanui, I should advise them to give up what they have got, and a piece of land in compensation: and to say, Now we have done this, let us live in peace, as we have made reparation. I only say what I would do. I have not enquired into the circumstances. Even in distant parts of the world I heard of the conduct of the Ngatiruanuis, and felt ashamed at such things being done bj Maories. Tipene then laid his taiaha at the Governor's feet, and said, Look here. You say that there is no cause: I say there is a cause. Will it (a vibration if a blow struck) stop at the tongue in the head of my taiaha ? Therefore I have thought your saving (words) would reach to the other end (meaning that the Ngatiruanuis had fought because the Ngatiawas had been attacked and that in like manner peace should be granted to all alike.) His Excellency : I do not like to say anything against past misconduct. Tipene : But we are speaking about that time (on that subject). His Excellency ; I do not like to say anything about that as an excuse. I should have to say something very severe about killing women and children. Tipene : Very well, the subject shall not be pursued if you say so : I have said the same. His Excellency : I have simply told you what I should advise. Tipene : That is right: My thought at the present time is the same. Are your questions ended ? His Excellency : Yes. Tipene : Then I will ask a question : Are you opposed to my king ? His Excellency : I do not care about him. But I think it is a thing which will lead to trouble. If you ask my opinion as a friend, I should say, Stop it. It will be stopped by such means as I have adopted, and it will die out. But I advise you to stop it. I fear it will lead to quarrels and so forth. Tipene : Behold ! if you say that it (the king) is a road which will lead to future difficulty, the error is our own : that is right. You have heard the reason why he (the king) was set up : if evil arise, it will fall upon ourselves (for we shall be the cause of it.) But if it (the king movement) is brought to nought by your plans, well and good. You say what is the king to you ? We say it is a thing of importance to us. And the reason why we say so is this, that we have seen the good of it: the quarrels of the Maories amongst themselves have for the last two years diminished. Therefore I say, if evil arise from it in future, we shall have caused it (brought it on ourselves.) Listen. Formerly both races were living together, our plans were the same and the work of this island remained unbroken. We worked together and talked together at that period, about the evils of the land; until the separation took place which we have been speaking about. Then, for the first time, I saw it was well. And now, by means of it many evils that have arisen have been put down without war) ; and, therefore, I say it (the king) is an important thing to us. Now, I ask you, " Are you altogether opposed to my king ?" If you consent to my question, wo shall then work quietly, because we are not the chief cause of the king ; whereas with you is the final decision as to your own system. So I ask you, " Are you altogether opposed to our king ?'■' that you may say whether you are so or not. His Excellency : If you ask me as a friend, I tell you I think it a very bad thing. Tipene : I say it has not arisen from us (Waikato), but from the whole island : but my questiou still remains unanswered. I ask, in order that the word of condemnation or otherwise may be spoken

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GOVERNOR SIB GEORGE GREY IN WAIKATO.