H.—No. 7.

22

REPORT OE THE PRIVILEGES COMMITTEE.

Mr. Lemon.

292. Can you obtain it ?—Yes, if ordered to produce it. [The witness was ordered to produce the original message; and, on the examination being resumed, ho deposed in answer to the question • put by Mr. Travers, " What hour was that message received ?" he replied, " Eight, p.m.] 293. Mr. Gillies.] Eight p.m. of what date ?—The 3rd October. 294. Mr. Travers.] What hour do you say it was received ? —lt was received at eight p.m., and finished at twelve minutes past nine at Auckland. It was handed in at the window to the counter clerk at eight p.m. The Honorable Julius Vogel was in attendance, and, on being sworn, was examined as follows :— 295. The Chairman.] You know the object of the inquiry? —Yes. 296. Would you be kind enough to make a statement of what you know in the matter ?—Some day—l cannot fix the exact time ; my impression is that it was the day before the matter came before the House —Mr. Harrison spoke to me on the subject without my inviting any statement of the kind. He told me what had taken place between himself and Mr. Holt, in. confidence, as I understood it. He then asked my advice, which I gave him. My advice was that he should at once apply to the Speaker for his advice. I did that because I did not feel myself called upon to give an authoritative opinion on the subject, and I thought he should ask the Speaker's advice. I cannot charge my memory with all that took place, but the impression I formed at the time (and I believe I still maintain that impression), is that it was a very great secret to bear about with one. I felt placed in pretty much the same position as Mr. Harrison himself. It struck me that at some future time this desire to secure the services of a Member of Parliament might crop out. I had no desire to carry about with me a confidence of this kind, and the only course I could adopt was to recommend that the Speaker's advice should be asked upon the subject. Subsequently Mr. Harrison told me he had written to or else seen the Speaker —I am not certain which. I then asked him if he had any objection to my seeing the Speaker, and on his replying in the negative, I did see the Speaker, and simply told him my share in the matter. I have one other remark to make. I do not know whether it is altogether pertinent to the question at issue. In the report in the Independent of some remarks made by me on the subject in the House, the impression would seem to be conveyed that I had formed some opinion as to the result of this inquiry. What I did say in the House would not bear that interpretation. What I did say was to this effect: without expressing any opinion as to the truth or otherwise of the subject matter of investigation, it is clear that Messrs. Brogden and Sons did not object to a change of Government. I consider that fact to be admitted by Mr. Holt in his letter, although he denied the charge as stated by Mr. Harrison. 297. Did Mr. Harrison lead you to believe that the conversation which had taken place between himself and Mr. Holt was understood to be confidential and secret ?—That was the whole point of the question. What he wanted to arrive at was, whether the communication should be considered in confidence. 298. Did you hear anything before from any other person, or was the first you heard of it from Mr. Harrison ?—I am under the impression I heard some one say that Mr. Harrison had received a startling communication. I am not positive on the point; but my impression is that I had heard something of the kind. 299. The secret, then, appears to have been broken before Mr. Harrison spoko to you?—l will not say positively. 300. Mr. Rolleston.] In what way did Mr. Harrison seem to object to the proposal ? —I understood that Mr. Harrison had gone to Mr. Holt on the understanding that a proposal was simply to be made for his professional services in the way of writing prospectuses and articles ; but that the proposal was made so as to include his political aid, and affect him in his character as a Member of the House— that he should give his vote along with his other services. No ; I think it was stated that that was not what was desired. He was to try to use his influence to prevent a certain vote from being brought forward. 301. Did Mr. Harrison tell you that Mr. Brogden desired that the Stafford Government should remain in office ? —Distinctly so. As I understood it, Mr. Harrison stated to Mr. Holt that he meant to support Mr. Vogel, and Mr. Holt replied, " You make a great mistake. Mr. Brogden is discontented with Mr. Vogel." 302. Mr. Parker.] When Mr. Harrison came to you, did he seem to treat it as a grave matter, and one upon which he desired to consult with you ? —Certainly, he did. 303. Did you sec Mr. Bell, the Speaker, on the subject before he took action in the matter ?—I saw the Speaker subsequently, with Mr. Harrison's approval. I think it was the same evening. 304. Mr. Rolleston.] Not before you had received Mr. Harrison's first communication ? —I knew nothing about the matter until then, so I could not have seen the Speaker about it. 305. Mr. Gillies.] Did you not see Mr. Bell after you saw Mr. Harrison, but before Mr. Harrison had seen Mr. Bell, and then on again seeing Mr. Harrison did you not advise him to consult the Speaker ? —No, certainly not. I advised him to see the Speaker at the time he made the first communication to me. 306. I presume, Mr. Vogel, Mr. Harrison informed you that Mr. Brogden wished to keep Mr. Stafford's Government in its position for a time at least. When he gave you that information, you perceived at once, no doubt, the political effect its promulgation would have ? —I cannot say that I did. A good many Members spoke to me subsequently, and said I ought to feel gratified with this expression of Mr. Brogden's desire. 307. That is no answer to the question. What I asked you is, whether you did not see that this statement of Mr. Harrison's would damage the Stafford Government if promulgated ?—No, I cannot say that that was the view I took. It did not for one moment strike me that Mr. Brogden supposed that ho could exercise a corrupt influence over that Government. The impression left on my mind was that he looked upon Mr. Stafford's Government as composed of soft and easy-going gentlemen, and that he would succeed in making better terms with them than he would otherwise be able to do.

12th Oct., 1872,

Son. Mr. Vogel. 12th Oct., 1872.