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1.—2

55. Mr. Kelly.~\ You are aware that certain Natives have petitioned against this Bill? The Natives have been misinformed about the Bill. They do not know the nature of the Bill. 56. Have you had any conversation with Mr. Swanson about this Bill? Yes. Mr. Swanson has urged me to enter into partnership with Harris. That has been the burden of his song. He told me that he would not oppose the Bill. He said not to call upon him for evidence. 57. The Chairman.] Without going into the particulars of this case of yours, was there not some protest signed by the jury to be put in ? The jury said that Craig had been robbed of his logs. That has not much reference to this case. 58. Mr. McGlashan.] Speaking of tramways, would not some of these logs be of such length and weight that a tramway could not carry them ? A tramway could be used for kahikatea logs, but not for a kauri forest. We sent a surveyor to one forest nearest to the sea on account of certain, parties in Melbourne, and he reported that a tramway would cost thousands of pounds. The Chairman read a portion of Mr. Swanson's evidence with reference to the danger to the dwellers on the banks of streams when logs were driven down. 59. Is there no danger to the neighbouring land ? I never heard of such a thing. I have been thirty years in the trade. lam the mortgagee of five different mills, and have £30,000 invested in mills. I never had a claim except those two I have mentioned. I take a part in the management of those mills, and export all the timber. I would wish the Bill to provide most ample security for damage. I say that evidence of Mr. Swanson's is utterly wrong. There are no farms or houses on any kauri creek I know. 60. Mr. McGlashan.] I understand you to say that unless this floating of timber is allowed, thesn forests will practically be shut up ? They will not be of a quarter the value they otherwise would have been. These people who own the land on the creeks could got them at their own price. 61. The Chairman.] I understand you to say that Harris is the owner of the land below a forest in which you are interested; you say that if you have not the right to float timber down, your forest would be absolutely useless ? Yes. Harris got half a chain across the river. The land he has got on one side of the river is not wortli £5. My forest would be perfectly valueless if I had not the right to float timber. There are £20,000 worth of timber in the bush. 62. Have you any tramways up in the bush ? It would be impossible to make tramways. A few light rails are put down to movo the logs, but these caunot be called tramways. The rails are shifted about to get logs into the creeks. The forest at Whangapoua was bought ten years or more ago, and the mill then built at a cost of over £6,000. Harris got the land or mud bank at the bottom of the creek lately ;it was considered valueless till he bought it, and is worthless now excepting to use as an instrument of extortion.

Mr. Maefarlane,

4th Sept., 1873.

Thursday, 4tii Septembsb. Mr. E. T. Beisseitden present and examined. G3. The Chairman.'] You have some evidence to give the Committee with respect to the floatage of timber ? I have had a great deal of experience in the matter, to some extent in the Province of Auckland. I have read this Bill, and in respect of making the creeks the highways for bringing down timber, Ido not see any other way of utilizing the forests. From the frightfui expense of making tramways, it would be impossible to utilize the timber. I have had experience in respect to tramways in California and other parts of the United States. In these places, the timber was sometimes got down by fluming, but usually the creeks are made use of. The tributary creeks were made use of as driving creeks. At the Tairua mill, which ] visited in connection with a proposed purchase by some Melbourne people, there are 52,000 acres of forest running right through to Katikati. Of the large quantity of timber there, there is very little on the main stream. The timber is mostly near small streams, which for nine or ten months in the year are chains of insignificant water-holes, and a flood would have to be waited for. But on account of the rough nature of the country, tramways could not be used. Any tramway would have to be like a railway in point of strength and expense. 64. Mr. McGlashan.] What would be the expense of a tramway per mile through such a country P It would cost £7,000 per mile. You can only penetrate the country by following the bed of the watercourses. C 5. Supposing the land fit for a tramway, can you give any idea of the expense it would be ? Probably £2,000 a mile. Any tramway for such a purpose must be a good substantial railway. Of course wooden rails would be used, but it would be expensive, as it would have to be thoroughly substantial. In many places it could not possibly be done, because the fall is too great, and the waggons could not be got back again. I may say that I have no interest in this matter. I was only asked to look at the Tairua forest by people who were prepared to offer a large sum for it. I was asked as to a tramway and the watercourses ; and I pointed out that, as to the latter, people might have land further down, and if logs got on their land they might have a claim for damages, and might stop the channel altogether. » G6. Did those people you speak of refuse to go any further on account tliat ? That was one very great obstacle. 67. Mr. Kelly.] How many miles is the end of the forest from the Tairua? I should say about thirty miles at the extreme. 68. Would it cost as much to construct a tramway as the timber was worth at the end ? Ido not believe you could get a tramway at all, as in many places you could not get the trucks back. There are a number of precipitous gullies. 69. Mr. O'Conor.] You state that the weight of the logs would be a great obstacle to the working of a cheap tramway. In all your evidence I understand you refer to one particular place ? No ; I have been at Kaipara, the Wairoa, and at most of the bushes in the North Island. In some places

Mr. Brissenden.

4th Sept., 1873.