I.—3a,

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259. "When Renata was speaking, did you not think he was speaking upon some preconceived resolution ?—I was aware that Renata was speaking to a resolution brought before the meeting — namely, that of the Native land question. 260. Ron. Mr. Fox.] If I understand you rightly, you stood towards that establishment, at various periods referred to, in a double capacity—first of all as manager, and afterwards as lessee, and also as teacher ?—Tes. 261. Do you receive any pay in respect to either of them? —No. 202. From beginning to end?—No. 263. You have made great improvements on the property ? —Yes, I have made all the improvements upon it. I would like to show what was the original value of the land. I have stated before the Royal Commission that for years we could not use the land. The 250 ewes given to start the property were put on the small block of 1,700 acres, the rest of the property being unoccupied. Mr. Pharazyn was in the neighbourhood about this time, and he offered me Government price for the land—a farthing; per acre per annum. I let him have the land—that is, the 4,000-acre block—the land on one side of this being partly a dense bush and partly covered with dense fern, and useful only as & boundary fence. He paid me for four years £4 3s. 4d. per annnm, and then he gave it up because it would not pay him to occupy the land. For three years and a half more it lay idle and returned nothing. Then Mr. Smith offered £5 per month, which he paid for seven months, and then lie gave it up. Seeing the land was and would be utterly useless unless I spent money in improving it, I, out of my own funds —it being impossible to raise money on the land —fenced it and otherwise improved it, with a view to obtaining some income off the land for educational purposes. It might seem extraordinary that the land would not bring more than the amount I have stated, but at that time any settler could take up Government land at a rental of a farthing an acre, with every chance of making it his own freehold in the course of time ; but any one taking up this land must do so with the certain knowledge that any money spent must be lost to him, and that there was not the least chance of making the land his own. 264. Then the difference between the intrinsic value of the land when Mr. Pharazyn rented it, and its intrinsic value now, was merely caused by the expenditure of your funds and labour upon it ?—Yes, excepting a few improvements about the homestead. I have mentioned, in evidence which I have given before, that it was pointed out to me that if I failed in reimbursing myself from the income of the estate, and that if there was any loss on my part, there was not the least chance of the money being refunded to me from any other source. 205. Captain Russell.'] From whom did you understand that? —I knew it myself, but it was also pointed out to me by Bishop Abraham. 266. Ron. Mr.Fox.] Then you did it at your own risk ?—Yes, and not a slight risk, considering the state of the country. I have known a relative of mine to advance several hundred pounds for the purpose of improving one of the Waikato school estates, and lose nearly the whole of it. 267. We have heard a great deal from the Natives about the school having been broken up, and the children kept away from it because they had an objection to be put to manual labour—that they considered manual labour degrading, and objected to it also because they went to school to learn bookknowledge, and not to do work. Can you give us any information on that point? —At the commencement of these schools it was made a strong point of by Bishop Selwyn, and also by Sir George Grey, that the Native youths should be taught to do various kinds of work, and that they should be called upon to do a moderate amount of work out of school hours. I had a school at Otaki before this one for seven years, and before that I had to do with a school in Auckland, and at these places the boys had to do work. The Auckland School was called St. John's College, and there both English and Native boys had to work. At Otaki I had 120 children —sixty boarders—and there also they did work a part of the time, and did it cheerfully. The work consisted of cultivating potatoes for their own use, and such things as that. As to the work being of a degrading character, I positively deny that. This was carried out to some extent when I went to Hawke's Bay ; but the school was not closed on that account. When I went to Hawke's Bay I had £300 a year given me to do the best I could with, but at the end of 1858 there was a change made in the Government system, and, instead of my receiving £300 per annum, I received £8 per head for each scholar. I found the cost of keeping a scholar amounted to £20 or £25 a year, and, with a debt staring me in the face, it was beyond my reach to provide £12 or £15 towards the maintenance of each scholar. Therefore, for that and other reasons, the school was closed, and I devoted my attention in this matter to the improvement of the estate, with a view of opening the school more efficiently in a few years' time. 268. Then you do not think that the fact of these children being put to a moderate amount of farm labour led to their being withdrawn?—No. It has never been brought forward till of late years. At the time they were doing the work, such a thing was not heard of. 269. They draw a distinction between the children being put to work by the master and by the fathers and mothers?—I have only heard of it during the last few years. For a number of years there has been no manual work done by the scholars, except assisting the servant to chop wood. The boys take turns in assisting the servant to chop the wood into small billets. 270. Have you known the parents of children from the Ngatiporou and other tribes object to their children doing this work?—I have received no complaints except those made in this House. 271. Mr. Williams.'] You mean by petition?—Yes. I have also heard that KaraitianaTakamoana and Wi Parata a few years since made complaints, and that then again in 1875 there were complaints made in some evidence given by Karaitiana. 272. Ron. Mr. Fox]. You intimated just now that you did not think the petition was the spontaneous result of the Natives' own minds on the subject ?—That is my opinion. 273. How did you get that idea ? —I was told by two of the Native members of the House, in 1875, that Mr. Henry Russell had endeavoured to get some Natives to give evidence against me, and that they had declined to do so. He then returned to Hawke's Bay, and I was told by some Natives that he said he would not be satisfied until he had removed me from Te Aute. Then, again, on the 8th August, at