1.—4,

48

might have a chance of taking service in connection with a group of charitable institutions. You would have at a place like Burnham an industrial school in addition to an asylum for the deaf, dumb, ' and blind, and also an asylum for convalescent lunatics ; and you might have a place where the washing could be done for those institutions, where these women might be employed, and have the chance of becoming good servants and reforming, and living a life in connection with honest work. I think if they had a chance some of them would be reclaimed. The first thing now when a woman goes out is that a few shillings are given to her, and she must get drink and ply her trade; but I believe, if there were some fair chance of honest work, a few of them might be saved. I should just like to refer again to the plan I tried to have carried out in sending for a gaoler who was an expert. My view was that under him gaolers might be trained and be sent to those smaller gaols. How far the Government is carrying out that plan I do not know, but I am sure until recently we have not had a class of gaolers who were capable of doing their work. They have been very kind, and have kept the prisoners together, but they were not gaolers. 1285. Has you attention been drawn to the scale of rations, and is it your opinion that they are too little or too much ?—I never had any complaint of its being insufficient; I should have thought it was ample. 1286. Do you know of any superabundance of bread ? The Gaoler of Lyttelton, in his evidence, told us that the bread was too much, and that bucketsful of bread were taken out, but at Lyttelton they did not allow the prisoners to pass bread from one to another. They say the discipline was stricter than here at Wellington, where the prisoners are allowed to pass bread from one to another, and it is all eaten ?—I remember the Gaoler at Lyttelton telling me that. I used to see the dinner every Sunday at Addington, and it struck me that it was ample. I never heard any complaints on the score of food. 1287. Mr. Tole.] Is the Sunday dinner better thau that on the week-days ? —No, I think not. 1288. The Chairman.] Do you know r whether there is any system of religious instruction ? —The clergymen come on particular days. The clergymen of the Church of England hold services, and the Roman Catholics are constant in their attendance on the prisoners of their own persuassion ; but there is no systematic religious teaching given by the State. I think they have every chance, and that the ministers attend very fairly as a rule—that is, the Catholic priests and one or more Protestant ministers. 1289. And is there any secular instruction given ? —There is now, at Lyttelton. 1290. Any man who does not know how to read and write is taught ? —Yes. 1291. Mr. Swanson.] Do you know of any case of moral cure —any case in which prisoners had been sent improved out of gaol ?—I could not say. lam inclined to think that religion on that class of people has a very good effect. That they are very impressionable. 1292. The Chairman.] Is there any opportunity, or is any attempt made, to keep the penal-servitude men separate from the hard-labour men ?—-No, I think not. 1293. Practically, there is no difference in carrying out the sentence ?—No. 1291. Could they do it in the same gaol?— Not with present appliances. 1295. AVell, what is your opinion as to a separate penal-servitude establishment ? Do you think one is necessary? —I think it would be a very great advantage ; but I think greater advantage would accrue from bringing our local gaols into a better condition. I do not think thero exists at the present time that criminal class that exists at Home, that make crime a profession; and I think it cannot be said that the system of our gaols has increased crime. It has not been deterrent to tho extent that it ought to be; but my impression is that, on the whole, our gaol system cannot be reproached with increasing crime to any great extent. 1290. Mr. Swanson.] It has not made matters worse, if it has not made them better? —I do not think it has. 1297. The Chairman!] Do you think first offenders have not suffered from their association with the prisoners in the gaol ?—I am not in a position to say. 1298. Mr. Swanson.] Take the case of young girls ? —They have been kept separate. With regard to the women, I think there are very few cases except prostitutes and drunkards. 1299. The Chairman.] The reason I ask this is that men have complained very bitterly of their association in the gaol with long-sentence prisoners? —I have not had an opportunity of knowing. I would not wish to be understood to say that I do not think the time has come wdien there ought to be some strict classification. I think there ought to be, and as crime increases there is the more necessity to prevent the evil you refer to. 1300. Do you believe classification to be possible so long as penal-servitude men are scattered all through the colony, and mixed amongst other prisoners? —I do not know. I can see so many opportunities of amelioration of local gaols that I question whether it would be advisable to establish one central penal establishment without previous amelioration of local gaols. 1301. AVhich do you consider would be better, to add to the local gaols, or to take away from the local gaols the penal servitude-prisoners ? —My experience of the gaols is that the first thing that ought to be done is to put them in a better position, and to have men with more training at their heads. 1302. Mr. Swanson.] And then, if found necessary, to weed these men out afterwards ?—Yes. 1303. Mr. Tole.] Do you think the building of a great penal establishment would not be good ? —I should like to see it. I believe it is wanted, but the other thing is wanted more. 1304. Mr. Swanson.] You think the other should bo done first?— Yes. 1305. You think the system will not be right until the other is done ?—Yes. 1306. The Chairman.] Do I understand you to say you would rather see the gaols improved and made more efficient. lam talking now of the question of construction. It appears from the evidence that there will have to be additions. The evidence is that the gaols are overcrowded, and that the prisoners are not allowed sufficient space. Then, would you proceed at once in the direction of enlargement, or build a central gaol, and draft out the long-sentence prisoners. That has nothing to do with the question of improvement of the gaols, it is another question altogether ? —lf it is purely a question

Mr. Solleston,

20th Sept., 1878,