G.—2

11

131. Major Brown : Mrs. Dalton was present, and I should like her to be asked as to her recollection of the matter. 132. The Commissioners: Mrs. Dalton, Major Brown wishes to know whether you recollect anything taking place in your'presence about the reserve of 10,000 acres? 133. Lucy Takiora Dalton: Ido not remember Major Brown nor Hone Pihama, nor any of them, speaking about the matter. 134. Major Brown: Do you remember my saying they should have a reserve of 10,000 acres ? 135. Lucy Takiora Dalton: I remember something of it, but not the particulars. I was not present when Hone Pihama, Mr. Dalton, and Patoe spoke about the surveyor. All I know is about Patoe, Tukarangatai, and some other Native going out on this survey. I know nothing of any other particulars. 130. Hawaiki (Mrs. Blake): I heard what Major Brown said with respect to the 10,000 acres. That was the extent of land he promised. I was present at three meetings where that promise was made: namely, at Taiporohenui,Normanby, and Ngarongo. Major Brown said we shpuld have 10,000 acres, and a grant of money, the amount of which I am not quite certain, but I think it was about £100. That was for my people, namely, the Ngatitanewai and Ngatitupaea. So far as I know, the only places to be included in this block were Tirotiromoana and Keteonetea. 137. The Commissioners: We arc satisfied this reserve of 10,000 acres was agreed to ; but wo cannot settle the matter finally until we see the papers Captain Wray is said to have. 138. Hone Pihama : I do not object to what Mrs. Blake says with regard to Major Brown's promise : I might not have hoard it; but if Ngawakatara, who was present, bears out her statement I will not have anything further to say. 139. The Commissioners : W^hat we understand from Major Brown is, that this reserve of 10,000 acres was to cover all promises and claims regarding this land. 140. Hone Pihama : It was my own proposition to Major Brown. There was nothing given by the Government to the Natives. The surveyors were employed by Major Brown and myself. If I had understood clearly from Major Brown at the time that there should be 10,000 acres set aside, I should not have asked him to have selected any particular block for the reserve. The surveyors whom we engaged were instructed to take the line commencing from Kaikera inland to Tirotiromoana. 141. Major Brown : I think the line was taken inland of these two places. They took it to Waingongoro and Araukuku ; but it does not quite reach Waingongoro. 142. Hone Pihama: I confirm what Major Brown said at the meeting, that the line surveyed for the reserve was to begin at Onewaia, and not go down to Waingongoro Biver, but go straight inland to Araukuku and Tirotiromoana. 143. The Commissioners: The Natives must leave this for us to consider. Tho reserve has been very lately made, and must be quietly thought over and determined. Enough has been said about it at present. 144. Pepeheke : I wish to say, respecting tho 700 acres at Stratford promised at the time Mr. Parris was Commissioner, that since Major Brown came into office I have been unable to learn where the 700 acres is to be. 145. Mr. Parris : WEen I put Pepeheke and his tribe from the Patea Eiver to Waipuku, they asked that they might have a reserve, and I arranged to give them one of 700 acres. They pressed me to have it allocated on the bank of the Patea Eiver, inside the line of the Mountain Eoad. The reserve was surveyed and marked off on the map. 146. Major Brown : In the beginning of 1876 Major Atkinson instructed me to have this reserve shifted. I spoke to the Natives about it, and suggested that they should give it up and have a larger amount added on the 10,000-acre reserve —about 2,000 acres. But they refused this, and I therefore shifted the reserve to a position inuch the same as " turning it over " would be. This they eventually accepted and agreed to, as was said by Pepeheke when speaking to-day. They afterwards leased the land, and took seven years' rent in advance. The ground is surveyed. I explained to the Natives at the time that the Government did not approve of the reserve, and wished to change it: that, as it was confiscated land, they claimed the right to do so. 147. Mr. Parris : Government did not notify me of any disapproval in regard to the reserve. 148. The Commission requested Major Brown to furnish them with a statement of the terms on which the reseiwe had been let by the Natives; also whether they had received the rent. 149. The Commissioners: What amount of rent have you received? 150. Pepeheke: We received £500, but I cannot say how much per annum the rent is. 151. The Commissioners: The matter seems rather confused, and, as there are questions connected with the Government township site and other things which require consideration, it must be left over for the present. 152. Kopekope, of Ketemarae, said : In the year 1872 Wi Parata came up to Oeo and requested Pepe and his tribe to return to Normanby. Sir Donald McLean sent Wi Parata up. When Sir Donald McLean went to New Plymouth, Pepe also went up to see him there. Pepe said to him, "I am the person who has suffered. I have been swimming in the water, and have been fished out by Wi Parata. The bait was that I should return with my tribe to Ketemarae (Normanby) and get 1,500 acres." This was promised to Pepe by Sir Donald McLean ; and Sir Donald McLean sent Captain Blake to survey this land. When Pepe returned he told us of this, and we all approved of it. At that time we did not hear anything about the Mountain Eoad. On the 14th March, 1872, we commenced to make that road. We simply cut the supplejacks and underwood, leaving the heavy timber standing. Pepe said to Captain Blake that the road should go as far as Matawhero, but no farther. Captain Blake replied that that would bo of no use. The road was to be made, and also the heavy timber to be cut down. Pepe then said he would agree to this, if something else in exchange was given. Captain Blake said, "Very well; you shall have ten acres at Hawera." Thereupon the heavy timber was cut down and the road formed. It extended from Normanby two miles. The boundaries of the 1,500 acres commenced at Onewaia and went thence inland to Matawhero. Pepe said, when these boundaries were