G.—2.

Major Beown further examined. 1032. The Commissioners?] In the Chief Surveyor's evidence he refers to a reserve of 2,000 acres which he understood it was the intention to make for Manaia, between Kaupukunui and Motumate Will you tell us the circumstances of that reserve? —At the time I received the telegram from Sir George Grey which I referred to in my previous evidence, Manaia was the only chief willing to meet me on the question of reserves, and he then expressed a wish to have a reserve made for him extending from Kaupukunui as far as Waiokura Eiver. I told him that he would probably not be allowed to have so far as that, but that perhaps he might get as far as Motumate Creek. I think I asked him whether he did not want Kauae Ba to be reserved, and he said, "Tes, I shall want that." He also mentioned some other place; I then said he could not have that, but could have seaward, as had been reserved. I then caused the surveyor to be instructed to leave out the 2,000 acres between Kaupukunui and Motumate, in order to leave room for the ultimate settlement of the matter. 1033. Did you promise him more than 1,000 acres ; and did you communicate to him what had been done ?■—No ; I did not promise him any particular quantity. He was quite satisfied to leave the matter in my hands. 1034. Then you did not promise to give him the 2,000 acres ?—That was a matter that required further consideration and inquiry. 1035. Will you please look at the plan that was enclosed in your letter to the Government of 2nd April, 1879. Can you specify any of the reserves shown on that plan as being the land which ought to be granted to Manaia? —The reserves I intended for Manaia are not shown on this map. I have a distinct impression that I pointed out a number of these sections to be reserved for Manaia and Bukukato, to the extent of about 1,500 acres. If my memory serves me, I furnished a list of the number, but did not have them marked on the map. And I have an impression that I was told that if I thought proper it could be withdrawn from sale in time before the day of sale. 1036. Are we to understand tbat there was no specific promise either as to extent or locality made by yourself to Manaia? —No; except generally that he would bave some land seaward of his place, bounded by Kaupukunui Eiver and down to the sea. 1037. Are we to understand that Manaia took this to be a promise of Government to that extent? —I do not think he understood anything as to the particular extent of land. 1038. Supposing tbat you were now carrying out the arrangements which you contemplated with Manaia, what is the land which you would advise the Government to grant to him ? —From Kaupukunui to Motumate: from the sea inland, so as to include his building and village. 1039. Then whatever is to be granted to Manaia himself now will have to be defined afresh ?— Well, that was contingent also on the amount of reserve he wanted inland.

Ax New Plymouth, Tuesday, 16th Maech, 1880. Major Beown further examined. 1040. The Commissioners.] A Parliamentary Paper was presented last session, containing an account of the various payments made under Mr. Parris's direction and your own, in the acquisition of land within the confiscated boundary. In that, return it was stated that 434.702 acres had been acquired by deeds of cession or by the payment of takoha, within the confiscated lines ; and that the money paid to the Natives had been £54,412. Do you remember that return ? —Tes. 1041. According to that return, and with the accounts brought up since to the present time, it appears that on the Waimate Plains the sum of £8,830 has been paid since August, 1877, £4,545 of which is stated to have been " taken as consideration-money," and £4,291 as incidental expenses. Will you, in the first place, explain the principle upon which you were acting in the payment of the takoha ? —I awarded the takoha in two shapes. One was to cover the former tribal rights, which was publicly paid to the Natives interested ; and the other to cover the mana of the chiefs, which was privately paid, only Europeans being present. The reason for the latter was this : The chiefs said they must oppose my action if all the money was paid publicly, because they would then be obliged to hand it over to the tribe, and they would lose their land without getting anything for it. 1042. Did you make any estimate of tho sum that would bave to be paid for the Waimate Plains, under your plan ? —The amount lo be divided tribally was £4,000 from Waingongoro to Kaupukunui; £2,000 from Kaupukunui to Wahamoko : and for the mana of the chiefs a sum not exceeding an equal amount. The whole sum was not to exceed £15,000. 1043. Was the £15,000 sufficient to cover the tribal and chieftain claims any further than Wahamoko, at the northern end of the surveyed block? —No. 1044. Did you form, in your own mind, .any estimate of the probable amount that would be requisite, in addition to the £15,000 to be paid as takoha upon these two blocks, for the acquisition of the rest of the coast ? —No ; because it was undecided what action the Government would take in respect to it. I may say that Mr. Sheehan told me he had considered the question of giving to Te Whiti the portion of the coast situated between tbe two blocks at Waiweranui and Opunake which were given back to the Ngamahanga and to Wiremu Kingi Matakatea, but he had come to the conclusion that it would be paying too heavily for Te Whiti's having kept tho peace on the coast. 1045. Then, if, instead of making the reserve which Mr. Sheehan spoke of for Te Whiti, you had had to apply your principles to tbe whole coast, could you have succeeded for less than a sum equal to the amount you had fixed to pay for that part which only went as far as Wahamoko? —I would say, in regard to that, that as I got nearer to Parihaka I found the necessity for paying takoha diminish. 1046. Paying takoha to Te Whiti ? —To any Natives. The necessity of paying takoha diminished after I crossed the Waingongoro. 1047. How do you account for that ? —I account for it by the influence of Te Whiti preventing Natives from taking the money. He said the land would not go, as long as they did not take takoha for it. What Mr. Sheehan said to me about tbat block of land was said before the surveyors were turned off. After the surveyors were removed, Sir George Grey, when he was at New Plymouth with

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