77

G.~ 2.

to Hone Pihama, Ngahina, Taurua, and Tito Hanataua represent sums paid to the chiefs for their mana. The others represent sums which, at meetings of the .Natives concerned, were agreed should be drawn by heads of families for distribution in the tribes. 1131. We will now ask you about your new 10,000-acre reserve in the block from Te Koti to Onewaia. We notice it is intersected by the Mountain Eoad: was it always understood that the Natives were to have a reserve extending for such a distance along the Mountain Eoad ?—The Chief Surveyor informed me that that would not be the permanent main road; and I arranged that the reserve should be bounded by the new line which will be the permanent Mountain Eoad, and which is very near the old railway survey made by Mr. Boylan. This was my reason for insisting with the Natives on the boundary which 1 chose on that side. 1132. Where will the new line of the Mountain Eoad come out at Normanby: will it unite with the present line at Ketemarae ?—lt will either join the present line where the railway crosses the road, or will enter tho road about a quarter of a mile from Normanby. 1133. Is this new reserve finally determined upon, subject only to your final settlement of the area; or will it not be necessary to obtain the special approval of it by the Government ? —I do not consider that it will require any special approval, as I had authority to make all necessary reserves, until that authority was stopped \>j the telegram of Sir George Grey. 1134. Taking the area of this new reserve at your own limit of 10,000 acres, instead of the 16,000 acres claimed at Hawera under Mr. Dalton's survey, and adding it to the 10,500 acres of Taiporohenui, and to the 6,000 acres of Otoia and Mokoia, they would altogether make a total of not far from 30,000 acres in one block, would they not ?—I do not think the total would exceed 27,000 acres. 1135. Which hapus of the Ngatiruanui are most specially interested in the new reserve?—The Ahitahi, Ngatitupaea, and Ngatitanewai. It may also be necessary to include in it, or to make a separate reserve of, 50 or 100 acres for an almost extinct tribe or hapu called Ngatirakei, which Katene represents. 1136. After the question of the boundary of your 10,000-acre reserve is concluded, will that complete all the reserves which you have engaged to make in the Opaku-Waingongoro Block ? —Tes ; with the exception, perhaps, of the 50 or 100 acres I just mentioned for the remnant of the Ngatirakei. 1137. Have you made up your mind as to where this small reserve should be made?—No ; because I thought it might possibly turn out that the 10,000-acre reserve would include a trifle more, when the points of Tirotiromoana and Araukuku were fixed: and there might be some excess which might be cut off the north-western corner to satisfy this claim. 1138. Tou said, in your evidence at Hawera, that this 10,000-acre reserve was intended to include all the outstanding promises in that part of the country which had been made by previous Governments ? —Tes. 1139. Then we may be sure that, as soon as this question of the boundary of your 10,000 acres is finally settled, there will be no more questions of reserves to be dealt with in that block ?—No. 1140. And when do you think that the question of area, and the dispute as to the difference between the 10,000 acres and the 16,000 acres, will be finally settled? —As soon as the Chief Surveyor can detail a surveyor to fix the points of Tirotiromoana aud Araukuku. 1141. Then if a surveyor were at your disposal now, there would be no difficulty in your finally settling the boundary of the reserve ?—No. 1142. And are you not of opinion that this survey should be made at once ?—Yes. I did not get the question settled while the survey of the "Waimate Plains was in progress, because a surveyor could ill be spared for it then, and because I foresaw a dispute on the question ; and I did not wish to raise it while questions about the Waimate Plains were pending. 1143. Tou have said that you did not deem it necessary to make any special report to the Government on the question of making the 10,000-acre reserve. Do you know whether the Government are really aware of the circumstances connected with it ?—I believe that a statement that the reserve was made, was included in one of my reports. 1144. Seeing that Taurua and the Ngarauru people, and the other tribes, had received very ample reserves during Sir Donald McLean's time, what necessity was there for making this additional reserve; and on what grounds was such a large reserve made in addition to the others ?—Taurua and the Pakakohe have 2,000 acres at Otauto, 1,200 acres at Otoia, 1,000 acres at Taumaha, and 4,800 acres at Mokoia, which were considered sufficient for them. Then comes the Whareroa Eeserve of 10,500 acres for the Natives interested in that block, namely, the Tangahoe. No portion of these reserves were available for the Ahitahi, Ngatitupaea, and Ngatitanewai: and it is for them this reserve of 10,000 acres on the Mountain Eoad is made. At the same time, there are a good many alleged promises to these tribes which I never could get at the bottom of, but which I have sufficient faith in to see that they would swallow up the most valuable portion of the land ; for these three tribes had already settled upon the seaward portion of the 10,000 acres. I had several reasons for dealing liberally with them. There was the indefinite nature of the promises that had been made to them ; the fact that they had submitted with very good grace to the confiscation of their land, which had not previously been meddled with ; and my wish that the Natives on the Waimate Plains should not infer that I would deal with them in a niggardly manner. 1145. Can you give any idea of the number of Natives who are interested in this 10,000-acre reserve, including women and children? —Speaking roughly, I should say about 200. A good many of them are at Parihaka, and took no part in the land transactions that I have dealt with. 1146. By whose authority was the reserve made: was there any special authority? —No ; there was the general authority from Sir Donald McLean to deal with the whole question and make such reserves as were necessary, contained in his instructions to Mr. Parris, afterwards repeated to me. 1147. Then, was your reserve to be complete and final, without having first to be submitted to the Government in this and other similar cases; or did it not require the assent of the Government, on your recommendation and explanation ? —I may say that I insisted on the western boundary being what the Chief Surveyor expected would be the eventual Mountain Eoad, so as to keep it clear of any road or railway difficulty, and so as not to leave any reason for the Government requesting me to alter the boundaries.