31

I.—2b.

49. Does the small piece adjoin the Crown-granted piece? —It is on the side. 50. Do the Maoris say that the piece was included through some mistake in the survey? —No. 51. Did the Natives living on this small piece conduct the survey line adjoining this block? — Yes. A. divisional line was put between the two. One piece was cut out and was reserved from Mr. Braithwaite's lease. They reserved this piece to themselves. 52. Whose map was it that included this small piece ?—I only know of one surveyor who surveyed this. 53. Mr. Ormond] Who had the survey of this block done ? The Maoris or the purchaser ? —-I am not clear ; it might have been Mr. Braithwaite. 54. Was that at the time of the lease ?—Yes. 55. Were you acting on legal advice when you resisted the Sheriff?—No ; we were not acting on advice. I wanted to bring the thing to a head. Ido not know but the same thing might continue to occur with other Natives. The Natives were so persistent that this piece had been excluded in the block, I sided with them, taking into consideration their statement and the statement also of the surveyor, 56. Mr. McMinn.] Are we to understand that this small piece has been surveyed off from the main piece ? —Those who conducted the survey took the lines so as to exclude this small piece. 57 Was that the original survey ?—Yes. 58. How did the small piece come to be included in the larger block ? —I do not know how it came to be included. 59. Mr. Rees.] Did any Natives at all consent to this piece being surveyed and put through the Court ?—No; 60. Did any Natives know of it going through the Court ? —No—that is, the small piece. They only knew that the larger block was going through Court. 61. Did any .Natives know that the Crown grant was issued for this small piece ? —No. 62. Did any Natives lease, sell, or mortgage with their knowledge the small piece ? —No. The only thing they know about is with reference to the larger block. 63. When did the Natives first hear that the small block was claimed by Mr. Sutton ? —lt was not until Mr. Sutton had ordered them off the land. When Maney had the land he did not order them off. I think that the land was first sold to Mr. Maney, and afterwards to Mr. Sutton. Perhaps I am wrong about that. 1 had only heard from Maney that he had got the land. 64. Is this particular piece of land more than ordinary land to the Maori, such as a burial-place, or cultivation ? —The larger block is fine fertile land. It has been cultivated. I. cultivated upon it for four years myself. It is all very good land right through. The smaller block we hold specially valuable because there are burial-grounds upon it. The land outside is better right through. On the smaller piece there are also cultivations as well as burial-grounds. 65. Has it been used long as a settlement as well as a burial-ground?—When Europeans first went there the Maoris were living upon it. 66. Prom the traditions of the people, have the Maoris been living there long?—Yes; for many generations. There is a hill on which stood a pa. The place was used by their ancestors, and continued so down to the present time when guns were first used. There were also kumara plantations alongside. Te Mingi was the name of the place. The 163 acres is called Ngatahira. The hill is outside the small piece, on the margin, but the kumara cultivation is on the land. 67 The pa is not on the land in question ?—No. 68. Are there any burial-places on the ground in question —that is, on the small piece ? —Y res; there are old burial-grounds. It has been used as a burial-ground in recent times. Ngatahira was the first person buried there, and the land was called after him on that account. 69. Would the Natives have allowed Paora Torotoro and Bewi Haokore to sell that land?—No; they never would have consented to that. 70. Do you know what Mr. Sutton gave the Natives for this land ? —I do not know I have heard, but do not recollect. 71 Have you ever had any conversation with Mr. Sutton as to the claim about the land ? —No ; this is the first time. 72. Were there not a great number of people to whom that land belonged—the 163 acres? — There are a great many owners to that land. There are two hapus, and each member of the hapu has a family, and they claim with him. 73. Did any of the Natives give instructions to have this land included in the survey?—.No. 74. Before the land passed through the Court was it not in occupation of some Europeans —that is, the larger block ?—Yes. 75. Was the smaller part in the occupation of Europeans?—No. 76. When the orders to survey were given, were they told to survey nothing but the larger portion which was in the occupation of Europeans ?—There were no instructions given to include the small piece. 77 Did any of the Natives know that that smaller piece had been surveyed, or passed through the Court, or Crown-granted ?—No. We first knew when Mr Sutton turned us off the ground. 78. Do you remember Dr. Pollen coming to Hawke's Bay, and having a meeting about this land ? —I remember. 79. Did Dr. Pollen examine and hear what the Natives had to say about this land ? —No. 80. Was there not a conversation with Dr. Pollen and the chiefs about it?—Yes. He only said one thing, and the chiefs would not agree to what he said, and they all went out. 81. Was not that ltorero after Mr. Sutton had summoned Paul in the Supreme Court?—lt was, I think. 82. What was the proposal that the chiefs disagreed to? —Dr. Pollen proposed that they should give this piece into bis hands, that is to say, for him to settle the matter. 83. The Chairman.] Settle the matter by giving up the land ?—Yes, by banding it over to him. 84. Sir W. Fox.] Is the witness personally acquainted with the facts with regard to the survey,