I.—ll.

485. Yes; but suppose the capitation were paid to a good school, would not the master get a good salary ?—Of course, it would depend upon the rate of capitation allowed. 486. The surplus on the capitation for the big schools is now taken to help the smaller ones. If the full present capitation was allowed for a denominational school, say, with a hundred scholars, would not that be ample payment for the teacher ?—I should think it would. 487. Then, he would be paid by the State to give religious instruction gratis to that denomination. Would not that be the State paying for religion ? —I think not. What the State wants is a certain amount of secular education, and, if any religious body produced that in their aided school, that is all the State should know. 488. But still the fact would be that State aid was being given to that Church ? —I am not able to reply further. 489. Mr. Feldwick.] Do you not think the absolute removal of the Catholic children from the public schools would remove the main objection to Bible-reading in the schools? —I do. 490. I believe your body is one that greatly promotes Sunday-schools?—Yes. 491. It has been a matter of principle with your body always? —It has. 492. Are they well attended?—They are. 493. Do you, by means of such schools, get hold of the children of all your members and adherents ?—As a rule we do. 494. There are cases where you do not?—Yes; but not among the destitute and poor. 495. Do you think sufficient religious instruction can be given on Sunday only ?—I do not. 496. You think it should be given daily? —I think there should be a recognition of God and the Bible daily. Ido not think religious instruction should be given in the public schools daily. 497. You said you would employ one afternoon a week for the children to come to the buildings of these particular denominations ? —The schools being closed on one afternoon would give the opportunity for that. My point is that at present we have not that opportunity. 498. Have you seen the operation of what has been called the drafting system in a public school ? —Yes. 499. It was done at Kaiapoi, I believe ? —Yes. 500. Was it objectionable ?—Not as far as I know. I never saw anything objectionable in it. 501. Was it not likely to have the effect of creating sectarian feelings in the minds of the children ? —By no means, as far as I know; no more than their going to different churches and Sunday-schools on the Sunday has. 502. Mr. Dodson.] I gather that, while you do not want religious instruction given in the public schools, you do not want the children to think that the Bible is excluded and the Supreme Being banished from the schools?—Yes. 503. Also that you think if the State pays for education it should be payment only for results ascertained by competent inspection, and so paid to any one, no matter what name the school goes by ? —Yes; on the part of those who cannot conscientiously avail themselves of the public system. 504. And, if that was done, do you not think that would remove the objections of the Catholics to the present system?—l think it would remove their grievance at any rate. 505. Hon. Mr. Bamicoat.] Probably you are acquainted with the Nelson system?—No; not the system there previous to 1877. 506. Can you give the Committee any information as to the working of the Nelson system before 1877 ?—I am not able. 507. You are not aware, perhaps, that the Catholic body, or any separating body, was subsidized under the Nelson system?—l am aware of it. 508. Are you aware that the system worked smoothly and satisfactorily to the community generally ? —I have always understood from all sources in Nelson that it did work satisfactorily and well. 509. Both to the Catholics and the community generally?-—-So I have been informed. 510. Mr. Barron.] Do you believe in physical training as well as instruction in general knowledge for children ?—I do not believe in the State incurring large expenditure, such as I have seen on the west coast of the South Island and in other places, in providing gymnasiums and other means for such training. I would heartily approve of some main principles and some simple instruction being imparted by the teacher; but I disapprove entirely of large expenditure by the State for the purpose, such as I have seen in some parts of the colony. 511. You think, for instance, that in a separate shed such training as you have named could be given with advantage?—l do. 512. You would take a certain part of each day from general instruction and use it for Biblereading?—l value Bible-reading itself as a means of instruction. 513. You think the system of general instruction is of the first importance?—l think that, in order to have efficient Bible instruction, one afternoon a week could be taken. 514. You are satisfied the present system of secular education is thoroughly complete; but you think it would be better if it included some religious instruction ? —Yes. 515. Even one-tenth of the time given to general instruction. You do not want religion to permeate the whole course of instruction; but you want some one or two hours a week set apart for it?—No. All I would ask for in the day-school is that the first half-hour each day be set apart for simply repeating the Lord's Prayer and reading portions of the JBible. 516. Hon. Mr. P. A. Bitpkley.] Did you say you would leave the selection of portions of the Bible to the local Committees ? —I said, I think, taking the system as it is, the condition of things throughout the colony as they are, it would be wise to leave it optional with the Committees as to whether Bible-reading should be allowed or not. 517. Then, would the Committee have the selection of the portions of the Bible which should be read, or should the teacher have the right to read any portion he thought proper ?—I think it should be left to the teacher. I would not dream of referring it to the Committee, I mean just

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