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it ?—I do not think it would make much difference as far as the promotion of schemes is concerned. It would be extremely unjust, I think. 114. Have you anything else you wish to state to the Committee?—l think not. 115. Mr. Salt.] I understand that since the first passing of this Standing Order 167, in 1847, and notwithstanding this Standing Order, an immense amount of capital has been raised upon which, although it is unproductive capital, interest has been paid ? —I take it that there is no question about that. I have a number of prospectuses here which would illustrate that. 116. I suppose you have no notion of how much capital has been so raised?— No. 117. But it would amount to millions?— Yes; several figures, I should think, before the million point. 118. Therefore, in spite of this stringent Standing Order of the House of Commons, trade has pursued its own course ?—Not quite so, I think. Its own course would be, I think, to pay interest out of capital during construction, but not to make arrangements through the instrumentality of contractors and others, which lead to very undue inflation of the capital. 119. It has pursued its own course as far as it could, under the circumstances ? —lt has done the best it could under the restrictions which have been placed upon it. 120. I have here a list of eight Bills which have been introduced into Parliament, containing a clause which, in each case, practically evades the Standing Order 167. I presume that that clause was put in in consequence of the decision of the Courts a short time ago ?—Most of those Bills, I think you will find, are promoted by myself as agent, I think with only one or two exceptions. I have already explained that, the matter having come so prominently before me in connection with the Hull and Barnsley Railway Bill, I advised any of my clients to point the matter by inserting those clauses in their Bills tentatively. 121. The decision of the Court was, in fact, the cause of your attention being called so much to the matter that you found it desirable to insert this clause?— Yes, it originated in that way. . 122. You say that the rate of interest upon unproductive capital should be placed at 4 or 5 per cent., with a maximum of 5 per cent.?— Yes. 123. You object to the 3 percent, suggested by Sir Edward Watkin ; I presume your reason for that is that, if so low a figure as 3 per cent, were named, it would lead to some kind of evasion in discount or otherwise ?—I do not believe that 3 per cent, would get the capital. 124. It would be necessary to evade the figure in some way, you think?—ln some way, no doubt. 125. A railway undertaking has this peculiarity, as I understand: that it must of necessity, in the case of building a new railway, be two, three, or perhaps four or five years before anything at all is earned ?—Yes. 126. And that is really the basis of the reason why interest should be paid during that period? —I think so; because, otherwise, persons will not lock up their money unproductively for so long a period. 127. You are distinctly of opinion that, if a course was pursued which would throw considerable power into the hands of the great companies, many smaller undertakings that would prove useful to the country would not be originated ?—Would either not be originated, or, if originated, would bo very much crippled and driven into embarrassment. 128. In the event of stock, and consequently certificates being issued for stock, for unproductive capital carrying interest, as you propose, would you suggest that the certificates so issued to the public should be specially marked?—l think it would be a very wise precaution. My original suggestion upon the matter was that the payment of interest out of capital should not be legal unless every shareholder had notice of what was intended to be done; and it might be done in that way. That is an ex post facto mode of giving the person notice, because I think, when a man gets a certificate of his share, he very often puts it into his strong-box without reading it; but it is the mode of precaution adopted where special certificates are issued under parliamentary sanction, and Lord Eedesdale often requires that the special certificate shall be indorsed. 129. Is it not desirable, in some measure, to protect subsequent purchasers, as well as original shareholders?—No doubt any purchaser would take notice. Whether it would be necessary to protect any man buying in the open market Ido not know. It would do no harm, of course. 130. Mr. Shaiu.] What indorsement would you put on the certificate ? — Something like this : " These shares bear interest at 5 per cent, during the construction of the works," limited to so many years. 131. "On these shares interest at 5 per cent, will be paid out of capital:" that should be put on it in order to be correct, should it; and would not that really hinder your object of getting capital more than anything else, because no one in his senses would think of buying such a stock? ■ —Do you think not ? 132. If you put the plain truth on it you defeat your own object ? —That is a matter which I would rather not say anything about, but I have my own opinion about it, which does not agree with yours, I respectfully say. But lam not a financier, and you will have those before you who are financiers. 133. Would you not like to see the exact truth on the document ?—I think, in the case of the Hull and Barnsley Eailway, the Master of the Eolls said nothing could be more aboveboard than the way in which everything was done, and the notice given was perfect to the public; and yet that stock was subscribed three times over by the public. 134. Mr. Brand.] You think there should be some relief given :do you not think it would be a more legitimate mode of relief to give the promoters power to issue the original capital at a discount? —I do not like the notion of issuing capital at a discount. My own opinion is, that it is an objectionable mode of doing things. 3—B. 12.