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upon as subsidiary. As a matter of fact, the loan was raised, I think, after the House had passed the Land Act authorising the deferred-payment system. But no one thought, at that time, that system would be the only system under which land would be taken up. At any rate I had no idea that it would be so when I made my calculations. 300. But when you made those calculations was the system in force? —Yes. 301. The Chairman.] As a matter of fact, I suppose the perpetual leasing system has interfered with the land sales for cash more than the deferred-payment system ?—Possibly. I do not know the relative proportions. 302. Mr. Tanner.] This harbour loan is under a system quite different from other harbour loans, inasmuch as the Government of the colony undertook to pay a quarter of the land fund arising from land purchased in the Taranaki District ?—lt was done in the provincial days when the land fund was provincial revenue, and I suppose that the House—certainly we did so—looked upon it as if we were merely giving up a portion of our own land revenue for what was considered a colonial work. 303. Then, the people residing in the district were not in any way consulted as to the loan ?—A great portion of the land at that time saleable was confiscated land, which was not occupied bysettlers. There were just the old settlers round the town and a few settlers down by Patea and Hawera. 304. Then, the great difference between this and other Acts is that in this case there was no poll of the ratepayers?— No. 305. It was looked upon as a colonial work? —Yes. 306. You said that you believed that relief could be given : are you in a position to state in what way it could be given ?•—I could not give particulars, but I have thought of two ways. The landing-charges at the port ought to be very much increased. I can see no reason why New Plymouth D and Waitara should be competing against each other to each other's detriment. Considerably higher landing-charges should be fixed by law for both these ports. ■ They compete with each other, and one cannot raise its dues without the consent of the other. There is a great deal of local jealousy, and I cannot see that it would hurt any one to levy a fair landing-charge at each of those ports, "if a tax is to be levied at all it ought to be levied on the consumers of imported goods and not on the lands. 307. The Chairman.] Nor on the exporters ?—No ;it should be levied on the importers, and then everyone would pay a fair share. 308. Mr. Tanner.] 'You advocate, in fact, a tariff rate on the importers ?—Yes, and I think this would get both Boards out of their difficulties. 309. You are aware that the Waitara people are liable to rates for the New Plymouth Harbour Board?— Yes; they have no harbour rating district of their own, and no other harbour rate to pay. The Waitara Harbour Board borrowed about £21,000, and it is in arrear with its interest now. 310. And yet it has to pay rates to the New Plymouth Harbour Board ?—No, the Board has not to pay rates except on its land endowments, but the settlers in the district have to. They were liable for the New Plymouth Harbour rate before the Waitara Harbour Board raised any loan. The Waitara Harbour Board have no power to levy a rate, only harbour dues ; and if these harbour dues were increased that Board would be out of its difficulties altogether. They are in the same difficulty at present as the New Plymouth Harbour Board. But it is clear that the settlers in the district ought to pay upon the goods imported through the harbour, and not upon the land; therefore I should like to see the landing charges considerably raised, and any difference made up by permission being granted to capitalise the deferred-payment land revenue, so as to supply a sufficient amount to pay interest. But I believe that there would be very little difference to make up if the landing charges were raised to a fair rate. 311. Mr. Larnach.] I think I understand you to say that any Native lands which may be acquired by the Government in the future would come under the present 25-per-cent. arrangement. Is there much of this land still to be acquired ? —Yes, a good bit. 312. Mr. Tanner.] Have you been made aware of Mr. George's scheme for the colony to take over the assets and liabilities of the Board, by which scheme he shows that the colony would be a gainer ? No, I have not. I saw a scheme propounded by my late opponent, Mr. McGuire ; but I do not think the Committee would think it very practicable. 313. Mr. Samuel.] I understand that you have sketched out your views very cursorily, but if the Committee were to think that the affairs of the Board should be submitted to Government for consideration as to what relief might be afforded to the settlers without injury to. the colony, you do not look upon this as a final answer ?—I have no doubt I could devise a scheme that would be practicable, but I have been too fully occupied this session to do anything of the sort. 314. But during the recess some scheme might be devised ?—There is no doubt about it. 315. Mr. Larnach.] As a matter of policy—in reference to devising a scheme for relief of this kind do you see any objection to the Government considering it, seeing the number of Harbour Boards there are in the country?—No, not so long as it is confined within present privileges. I have no idea outside of that, but within that I think it could be done reasonably. The position of the New Plymouth Harbour Board is exceptional, no other harbour having any claim to colonial land revenue. 316. Mr. Samuel.] You look upon the 25 per cent, of the land revenue as an endowment of the Board for the construction of the harbour, and your scheme would take the form of allowing the Board to capitalise a portion of this endowment so as to enable it to meet its engagements ? —Yes ; merely to get over the difficulty which is induced by the development of the deferred-payment and perpetual-lease systems, to make provision to use, in a satisfactory way, the Board's share of the Land Fund under its changed circumstances. 317. Mr. Larnach.] Any scheme which came before you in connection with this particular case you would be prepared to consider with regard to any other Harbour Board hereafter? —Un-

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