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instruction. My objection to the ordinary drawing classes established is simply this : that one person undertakes, together with the general classes, to teach architectural and mechanical drawing, but there is no attempt to carry the instruction further towards practical results. I should myself be unable to give the practical instruction for the constructive work in these sections as effectively as a professional man. For this reason I have appointed specialists to undertake these sections. In every case in these technical classes the ground-work is made as thorough as possible. It is hoped eventually to establish a proper architectural and engineering school in connection with the school of design. Really, we are doing more than the work required to be done by us as a school of design. We are carrying out a work of great practical utility ; our aim is so to carry on the work of the school that it shall be thoroughly technical in all its details and facts. There is another special section to which I would also invite your attention—namely, the modelling class. In this class we propose to utilise the work of the students. We are already arranging to do so. With a view to the establishment of terra-cotta work, they are now learning modelling, and I hope their knowledge will be practically utilised very shortly. Arrangements are being made for carrying on this work, and a kiln is being built by a private firm. 147. You said there was a return sent in of the number of students in the evening classes : in this return which I hold in my hand the classes are not evening classes?— Yes, there are evening classes there as well as day classes. 148. Do you find that tradesmen take advantage of those classes ?—Not sufficiently. One or two tradesmen, lam afraid, are anxious about their own standing; they are afraid the students will get too much knowledge. Tradesmen, in two instances, refuse to recommend students to attend. I think if a small sum could be given to each district to enable it to provide an instructor it would be of great advantage to the district, for there are several districts without any such instructor. But at the same time I think the whole system should be properly organized, and each district should be dealt with from a central department. If each instructor were allowed to organize his own schoolwork there is a probability that the system would not be so efficient as it should be. 149. Are there no other schools of design except this one in the colony ?— Yes ; there is one in Dunedin and one in Christchurch. 150. Mr. Allen] Speaking of evening classes, have you had experience of evening classes in England ?—Yes, I attended the Lambeth School of Design and the South Kensington School. 151. But, as a matter of fact, do you know from experience that the technical evening classes there are likely to be a success ?—The technical evening drawing classes are certain to be a decided success. They have proved themselves to be so already, except in places where instruction is deficient, or from other cause the work cannot go on. There are evening classes throughout England in almost every place where there is a population of 25,000 people. I think there is no doubt whatever they have been successfully established. 152. Are the numbers attending increasing or decreasing ?—The numbers are increasing decidedly. Greater stress has been laid upon them in late years. The trades already find that unless they get this technical instruction, and consequently knowledge, they cannot compete with the work at present turned out by other countries. I may instance the French and German schools, where they devote as a rule four hours a week to drawing in the public schools. 153. In the evening ? —ln the day ; and after leaving the public schools they continue their course. But there is an important point to be observed, and that is, that usually to artisans no fees are charged in these continental schools. This matter of the payment of fees is a great difficulty with us here. Young lads find it sometimes impossible to pay fees, although the fees are so very low. In such cases I pay the fee, and they refund as they can. 154. Mr. M. J. S. Mackenzie] What do you mean when you say a very reasonable cost in connection with the establishment of such a department ?—lf a sum of £1,000 were set aside for the establishment of an art department, that would be sufficient for the present. The first thing that will have to be done is to get some person to organize the whole scheme. That will have to be done before anything else is done. The money would be mainly expended in organizing schools in districts where no schools have been organized up to the present time. It is a fact now thoroughly understood that, if trades are to be successfully carried on, drawing must be thoroughly taught. Great stress is laid upon this matter of organization at Home. It is the weakest part of the English system but the strongest part in the German and continental systems generally. The reason of the great efficiency of their workmen is now recognised to be the higher value which they set upon technical instruction as applicable to trade. Any person who has had to deal with such a department would not, I think, have very great difficulty in organizing a complete scheme for the purposes of the colony. After that, with reference to the school of design, I think it should be devoted almost wholly to the technical classes. 155. Hon. Mr. Fisher] Do you suggest a technical system, to be supported entirely at the cost of the State? —No. Once the schools were established fees might be charged for instruction. At present the Board of Education in this district find a room for the training of the teachers, and this we use as the school of design. I think fees would be sufficient, with a small salary added, where the school is a success, to cover the whole of the cost. Mr. Habens and myself have had conversation upon this subject, and he fully agrees with me that such a department would be beneficial to the colony. The great difficulty is that of getting the necessary funds. 156. But do I understand you correctly that you are clearly of opinion that the pupils should pay fees ? —Decidedly; but the fees would not be sufficient to pay the instructors. We have the same system in New South Wales. Technical art-classes were established there in connection with the Technical Education Board. In that case the fees are paid to the Board. The Board refunds the whole of the fees and give salary in addition, ranging from £100 to £500 to the instructors.