95

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should have to pick up the case as best I could, getting permission to read over the evidence so far as it has been transcribed, and making my way with the case without in any way delaying the Commission. And I venture to say that the employment of counsel does not have the effect of delaying or retarding these matters, but rather accelerates them. I submit if the application had been made at the outset, it would have been made almost as a matter of course, and that no reason has been shown why it should not be allowed now. Mr. Blair would be in a position to employ counsel himself if he thought fit, and his counsel would certainly start under no considerable disadvantage—not anything like the disadvantage that I should start under, because practically I know very little of the matter as yet, except what I have been able to gather in conversation with Mr. Lawson, and from reading the correspondence. The evidence I have not read yet. Mr. Blair : Perhaps I might be allowed to state that the cases which Mr. Chapman has cited, in which counsel were allowed to appear, are cases in which the application was made at the beginning of the inquiry. Had that been so here, I certainly should have raised no objection. On the contrary, 1 gave every opportunity to have the question raised. I then asked both Mr. Gore and Mr. Lawson if they were going to appear by counsel, and they both said " No." Mr. Lawson : I may say, as a further reason, that this whole inquiry has taken me by surprise. I did not know, until the information was obtained by yourself and through yourself, what was to be said in this whole matter. I was in perfect ignorance of the charges that were to bo made against the building, myself, the Inspector, and the contractor, and all concerned. I did not know that, and I endeavoured to know it. I did my best to find out. I made inquiry at the Public Works Department in Wellington to find out, and I have evidence here to show that nothing was formulated in that office before this inquiry came into being—nothing. Mr. Blair : Then there was nothing to tell you. Mr. Laivson: I have the evidence of Mr. O'Connor the Undor-Secretary of the department, that nothing was formulated, and here I come to hear a whole cloud of charges brought against myself, the Inspector, the contractor, and the building, and I submit that, under these cirsumstances, I ought to have some consideration. The Chairman: I should like to ask Mr. Lawson what the object in introducing counsel now is; whether it be to cross-examine witnesses or simply to take notes for your benefit or advise you ? Mr. Lawson: Simply to promote the advancement of truth. The Chairman : In that case would your counsel cross-examine witnesses? Mr. Laioson : That would be, I presume, at your discretion, according to what I understand. Mr. Chapman : It would bo a matter for himself to consider what he is to do. Mi-. Blair: I have not the slightest objection that Mr. Lawson should have counsel outside to advise him at every step, or that ho should come down with half a hundredweight of law books every morning to quote points of law; but I object to having counsel at this stage. If ho has one I must have one, and it would bo unfair to my counsel to have to take up my case at this point, when it has gone so far. Ido not object to him having a solicitor to advise him. Mr. Chapman: I may say, in answer, that, so far as my merely coming and sitting beside Mr. Lawson and advising him is concerned, I take it that I scarcely need ask permission for that. It is a public inquiry, and any one may sit here, I suppose. What I should include in asking leave is that I should be permitted to cross-examino witnesses ; if necessary to call, and very shortly to examine, those who have been already examined; but if they have been regularly cross-examined I should not claim that privilege, and then to examine witnesses called on Mr. Lawson's behalf. Mr, Blair : That means beginning over again. Mr. Chapman : No, it does not. The Chairman: I may state that the Commissioners have already considered the subject. They got an idea of what was going to take place and the matter has been thoroughly talked over, and they have come to the conclusion that it would bo unfair to admit legal talent at this stage of the proceedings. It was talked over before, when we commenced, and the understanding was that no legal talent should be introduced ; and, as far as the scope of the inquiry is concerned, the Commissioners did not consider that any legal advice at the inquiry would bo necessary. Mr. Chapman : So far as matters of law are concerned it is not necessary. I admit at once that it is merely a matter of procedure of the conduct of the case, and if you decide not to hear counsel it simply means that I must do the best I can in assisting Mr. Lawson. It cannot bo suggested that there would be any delay in my actually formally appearing, because I shall have to sit by Mr. Lawson's side and practically undertake the direction of his case, and constantly, to use a common phrase, " coach " him in the proceedings. The Chairman: The Commissioners have no objection to your attending as one of the public and advising Mr. Lawson as you like. Mr. Chapman: I submit, in fairness to Mr. Lawson, he should have the privilege of counsel here to conduct his case. The Chairman : The Commissioners have decided that that would not be fair, and they do not consider it necessary. There are no legal points; it is simply a matter of elucidating the facts to enable them to report, and that is all they wish. Mr. Chapman : That is the sole reason for which Mr. Lawson wishes counsel to see that the facts arc elucidated. That is his desire. The Chairman: Of course I understand, Mr. Lawson, you intend to employ Mr. Chapman to advise you throughout the proceedings; but he could not appear to cross-examine and take any part in the proceedings beyond advising you. We wish to give you every benefit we can. Mr. Laicson.: I bow to your decision; but nevertheless I state, and that very strongly, that I myself am put to a very great disadvantage. The Chairman: You should have said so at first. Mr. Lawson : I was totally unacquainted with what would happen. Mr. Blair knew every-