I.—3a.

4

70. Mr. Hutchison.] You do not know?—No. 71. Mr. Ormond.] What reason have you to suppose that lie was there ?—My reason is the admission by Stockman to a witness that I can bring. 72. The Chairman.] Is that witness here? —He is not here just now. Mr. Hutchison: But it would not be evidence against Walker if you had him here. 73. The Chairman.] Did Judge Wilson ignore the names of all the objectors ?—Yes. 74. Mr. Hutchison.] Can you give us the names of the objectors ?—They are put in. Those papers should be produced. 75. The Chairman.] Have you anything to show that Charles Brown had any pecuniary interest in procuring signatures to this lease ?—He told me privately that he was working for other parties. Mr. Bichmond: He was the agent negotiating these leases, in the first place. 76. The Chairman.] How do you know about his paying moneys without a negotiator, and obtaining the Native signatures personally ?—By witnesses. 77. Have you them here ? —Not just now. Mr. Joshua Jones and others told me they wer present during the negotiation. 78. You make certain allegations in this petition: you should have been prepared with your witnesses to substantiate them, or you should withdraw them. Are you prepared to establish these allegations by evidence ? —I have not witnesses present. 79. Were you present before the Trust Commissioner ?—Yes. Mr. Bichmond : I was present also. 80. The Chairman.] Did he permit the names of persons who had never seen the alleged lease to be attached to it by another Native. What do you say about that ?—Mr. Joshua Jones and others know the fact. 81. Mr. Hutchison.] Have you any proof of that ? Mr. Bichmond: It appears on the face of the deed. One Native signed for others. He did not pass the deed as regards four names. There were twenty-two names, and he passed it for eighteen. Mr. Hutchison : There was no fraud in that. 82. The Chairman.] You say that he induced a Native named Huia to commit wilful perjury? Mr. Hutchison : That is a very serious charge. Mr. Bichmond: The petitioner cannot substantiate that charge until all the papers are produced. 83. The Chairman.] You say there was an affidavit ? Mr. Bichmond : We do not know. We have not been able to get at it. 84. The Chairman.] You state that Messrs. Eussell and Morrin offered money to the chief of Mokau to induce him to favour Messrs. Eussell and Morrin's case ? —We cannot prevent them offering money. Mr. Bichmond : What he means is that he has a better right to the certificate than the person who obtained it. Mr. Macdonald : I should like to make a short statement with reference to two of the paragraphs in the petition which affect me personally. Before doing so I would like to put a question or two to the witness at the proper time. I allude to paragraphs 10 and 11. The eleventh paragraph it is, I think, which says that during the argument I produced a telegram and handed it to Standish, making the remark in relation to it which the witness alleges. [To Witness :] Mr. Standish—he would, of course, be present when this occurred? —Yes, he would be present. 86. Mr. Richmond, who is present now—was he present ?—No. 87. Was he not ? —No, he was not. 88. Walker and Stockman were, of course, present ? —No, they were not. 89. Then it was only you and your solicitor who were present ?—Alexander Gilmour, myself, and solicitor. 90. That was during the argument ?—Yes. 91. The Chairman.] Or was it afterwards ?—After the Court was over. 92. Mr. Macdonald.] Are you sure of that ?—Quite. 93. You are sure that this took place after the Court was over ?—Yes, when he was packing his papers up. 94. If that was so, how is it you say that, during the argument before, your petitioner knew of the opposition ?—He went up and saw you. 95. You opposed the grant of a certificate to Walker?—Yes. 96. How do you reconcile that the telegram was produced "during the argument " with your allegation that this was a transaction that occurred after the proceedings were over, only yourself, your counsel, and another being present ? I ask you how you reconcile these two statements ?— Well, he was arguing then over some of my affairs. I went up to see him after the Court sat, and he argued again. 97. The Chairman.] Where was this?—lt was in the room upstairs in the hotel. 98. Mr. Macdonald.'] That was where the proceedings were held. Now, I would call your attention, Mr. Owen, to the previous allegation made by you —that is, the one which alleges that you heard Thompson saying that he was looking for Stockman, and that he (Thompson) had been directed by the Chief Judge "to work " for Walker. Is your memory in relation to Thompson as clear as it is in relation to the telegram?—l do not understand you. 99. I ask you the question whether your memory is as clear about the one allegation as about the other ?—Yes, quite. 100. If the Committee would allow me to carry the war into the enemy's country I would ask another question or two.