I.—3a,

10

many years' relationship. He said he was given to understand that the certificate would be granted to Walker, and that he would lose the land if he did not go with Walker. 188. Did you ever see the alleged agreement on which Stockman made application for a certificate ?—Yes ; it is the agreement I have been speaking of. 189. lam speaking of the agreement between Owen and Stockman ?—I saw the agreement upon which the notifications were made. 190. Did you ever see any other agreement on which Stockman applied, or is alleged to have applied, for a certificate ?—Yes; there was the agreement before the Committee—an agreement where a name has been put on. 191. Will you look at this document ? Did you ever see the original of which this purports to be a copy ?—Yes, I have. 192. Where? —I had it in my possession in 1882. I have seen it twice. I saw it again in October, 1887. [Copy of agreement, dated 27th December, 1881, between certain Natives and George Stockman.] 193. You say you saw the original of that ? —Yes. 194. When you saw the original was the signature of Mare Kura upon it?—No; certainly not. The name of Mare Kura was not on it in 1882. 195. When did you next see the agreement ? —ln October, 1887. That was when the Trust Commissioner gave his certificate of the lease of that block. 196. In whose possession was the agreement then ? —lt was with the Court. 197. Who had produced it ? —I do not know how it got into the Trust Commissioner's hands. 198. Was the signature of Mare Kura on it then ?—Of course it was. 199. Did you make any remark about the signature to any one ?■—Yes, I saw it in a moment. I made remarks to several people at the time. 200. Did you speak to Stockman about it ?—Yes, I spoke to Stockman about it. 201. What did he say?—l said to him, " You will get into trouble over that ' Gillies deed.' " He said, " Why, what about it ? what for ?" I said, " I see you have put the name of Mare Kura to that deed. You know it was not on the deed when I had your papers helping you along in 1882." He said, " Major Brown told me to put that name on the deed. Nevill Walker was present when it was done ; and they are responsible, not me." 202. Major Brown purports to be attesting witness to the signature of Mare Kura?—Yes. I said to him, " You ought to know better. You are a licensed interpreter, and you are an interested party to the deed itself." He said, " I will not get into trouble for Brown or Walker. If I am put into a corner I will tell the truth about it." 203. Did you appear before the Trust Commissioner when the leases were put in ?—Not when they were put in; but I was in the Court when he granted the certificates upon them. It was done in open Court. 204. That was Judge Wilson? —Yes. With reference to that deed, I may say that I had written to the Government upon my own responsibility, and told them that it was their duty to prosecute those persons. My letter is in existence, both with respect to that deed and with respect to some false affidavits that the Natives had made —that they were induced to make. 205. Do you know what action Major Brown took before the Trust Commissioner?—There were two sittings of the Trust Commissioner. I was not present at the first sitting. 206. What took place at the second sitting?—There were long objections put forth to granting the Trust Commissioner's certificates, on behalf of Owen and the Natives and others. 207. Mr. Hutchison.] Were you present ?—Yes. 208. You are speaking from your own knowledge?—Yes. 209. Mr. Gray.] I am asking with regard to the objections in respect of Owen ?—Owen's name was mentioned oftentimes during the discussion, and the Judge, in giving his decision, gave a separate decision as applicable to Owen's position. 210. There is an allegation in the petition " that he permitted one Native to sign for others who were not present " ?—I was not there. 211. There is another allegation, "that in connection with the leases he induced a Native named Huia to commit wilful perjury in an affidavit." Do you know anything of that?—l was not present. The affidavit is in existence. 212. Do you know anything about the action of Huia in connection with that affidavit ?—Huia is as innocent as a child. He is a man that can be led into anything. 213. What was the affidavit ?—I have not seen either of them. Ido not know. 214. Do you know the Native Wetere te Eorenga ?—Yes ; he is the head chief of Mokau. 215. Were you present when Stockman and Owen wrote a letter to him ?—Yes; they both signed a letter dated the 10th June, 1887, I think. 216. Have you seen the original letter since it was signed and delivered to Te Wetere ?— Yes. 217. Is this the letter?—Yes. It is dated the 10th June. Owen and Stockman's signatures are to it. [Letter handed in.] 218. Have you heard anything about a telegram which was said to have been produced by Chief Judge Macdonald when he was at New Plymouth in June ? —I was not in the room. 219. Have you heard anything about the telegram which the Chief Judge is said to have shown to Mr. Standish?—l have heard of it. 220. From whom?—From Mr. Standish, at the time. 221. What did Mr. Standish tell you?—When they came out of the office I met them. 222. The Chairman.'] Who do you mean? —Mr. Standish, Owen, and Mr. Gilmour. They were coming down the hill together. Owen insisted upon Mr. Standish telling the contents of the telegram, and Mr. Standish said he would not, because it was shown to him in confidence. Mr. Standish told Owen it was hostile to his interests. I said to Mr. Standish, " You ought to tell