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Mr. Maxwell : Then I will go on to the next point—drivers. There is a case where a man runs into town in the morning, the time of his run being three hours and a half, and out in the evening, three hours—seven hours and a half running and shunting. During the day he is standing six hours, which make's thirteen and a half hours, and most of the six hours he is booked off altogether. His total run is only eighty-eight miles ; but if I have understood you aright you would pay him overtime after eight hours. Mr. Owen: No ; that is contrary to the principle altogether. I thought it was put very clearly. I must have been very dense if I did not make it clear. The man should work forty-eight hours per week. Mr. Maxwell : But he does this every day in the week. Mr. Owen :He works thirteen hours and a half each day ? Then, that thirteen hours and a half counts each day. Mr. Maxwell : Of course, that is far more than forty-eight hours. I want to get at this : What would you pay him ? Would you pay him for all time over forty-eight hours. Mr. Owen : Yes. In many instances it could be met by what is called a three-legged service. Mr. Maxwell: No, not this case. Mr. Oiven: But you could make it a case. Mr. Maxwell: I want to know how you would pay this case ? Mr. Owen : You are laying down a hard-and-fast rule that, I think, is hardly in keeping with what we ask at all. W Te ask you not to work this man six days a week. Mr. Maxwell: What would you do, then, in that case? Only work the man three days a week ? Mr. Owen :I am not prepared to say what I would pay him. At the end of his forty-eight hours let him be relieved from duty. Mr. Maxwell : But you would have to put on a second gang to work the next three days ? Mr. Owen : That is easily done. There are cases in point at the present time where they are strictly working to the scale you speak of. That is to say, it is six hours beyond his time. Pay that man for his six hours, and have a third man in the service. He is not a very expensive man. Mr. Maxwell : Make it a three-legged service'? Mr. Owen : Yes ; have a fireman that can take the engine as a tireman or driver. • Mr. Maxwell: You think that the time he is standing should count ? Mr. Owen : It is done in all parts of the world. Mr. Maxwell: That was what I wanted you to tell me. Mr. Owen- : I dare say you have the parliamentary reports from the Old Country, and if you turn up Mr. Maxwell: I know what they do. 1 am not finding fault; I simply want to know how you w:ould treat this case ? Mr. Owen : But you are rather placing me at a disadvantage, iam not a locomotive engineer or foreman. lam only one man. Perhaps you will say, "Oh, he is looking at it from a selfish point of view,—what he would do." Mr. Maxioell: No; I want to know what the Association says, what you would lay down, and the solution you say would be a three-legged service, counting the six hours' standing time as working time. Mr. Owen : Not to make too hard-and-fast a rule, yon could take, one hour out of the mau's time for his meal-hour. Mr. Maxwell : Well, of course, we would allow that. Mr. Owen: We do not wish to ask you anything unreasonable, or even go sailing close to the line of unreasonableness. We want a fair thing. Mr. Maxv;ell: But I want you to keep to this point : take off the meal-hour, and say five hours : you would count that working time, because the man is away from home ? Mr. Owen : Yes; and if he is running, say, into Wellington, there is plenty of work for him to do. Mr. Maxwell: But there is not in this case. Mr. Owen : Nothing you can find him ? Mr. Maxwell: No. He has very long hours, is away from home, and there is nothing for him to do. Mr. Owen: Well, Ido not know whether I made it clear. Mr. Maxwell: Yes; I understand that the service should be three-legged, and that he may be five hours booked off, which is counted as working time, because he is away from home. Mr. Owen : Yes ; I think the very system of booking men off is wrong. Mr. Maxwell: But that is how you would treat this case'? Mr. Owen : Yes. A man is away from home, and of what use is his time to him ? He cannot employ it, for instance, in improving his mental capacity. Mr. Maxwell: I dare say that may be right. I simply wished to know how you would treat the case. Mr. Owen :We simply go on broad principles. It is hardly withiu our province to dictate to the Commissioners. Mr. Maxwell: The man's pay, according to your scale, would be, for the four days, 21s. a day'? Mr. Owen : That is another way of putting it. Mr. Maxwell: It would be 2.15., according to your eight hours' basis. Mr. Owen : How is it now oh the three-legged basis ? Mr. Maxwell : Ah, that is on the present basis. I want to get at this :ifhe is working fortyeight hours a'week on the basis you have laid down "he is only running four days a week : is he to be paid four or six days ?

to do.