D.—4

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Mr. Winter : Just so ; take on a man. Mr. Hannay : But it might be to do a boy's work. Mr. MaSvell: We cannot tell how many we want. We do not know how many leave the service—retire or die. We have no control over that, and we have also to appoint others to the higher grades. We want lads to fill the places. When promotions occur we take on lads—sometimes many in a short period. Then again the gates shut : men do not leave the service. At one time we did not take any on for a year. We cannot fix any rule for taking on lads. When there are no promotions we do not as a rule get them, and when promotions are active we take them on. Mr. Elvines : The tenor of your statement is that an increase of promotions would necessitate an increase of lads. Mr. Hannay : That is true. Mr. Elvines : If you can show us that the promotion has been in proportion to the lads taken on, that would be enough. Mr. McEerrow : This is an expanding service. Mr. Hannay : I think we are making too much of this. I believe we are unanimous that we should not limit the number of boys to be taken on. The question is, how should, they get promotion ? It is very rarely that we have lads with us over six years without getting promotion. Mr. Maxwell: Some have an opportunity of promotion quickly, by passing an examination. Mr. Hoban : After being in the service six years they should be rated as clerks. Mr. Edwards : One of our objects is to regulate the labour-market. We have thought out the situation carefully and thoughtfully, and we find that the only way to regulate it is to have rules laid down fixing the proportion of adult to boy labour. We have made it this proportion. This deputation is simply carrying out the ruling of the union. Ido not think the deputation could abandon its instructions. Mr. McKerroiv: You are intelligent men, and if you all agree to a little modification there is no difficulty as far as your association is concerned. You are here to arrange matters. We have got through the apprenticeship question, and if you agree to the cadets we shall be able to get on. Mr. Hoban : Let us pass it and consider it later. With regard to shunting ? Mr. McKerroiv : We quite agree with you on that point. Mr. Edwards : Can porters be promoted to be stationmasters ? Mr. Maxwell : We have done that. Mr. Edwards :Is it understood that porters can be stationmasters ? I might inform you that Traffic Managers rule otherwise. It has been understood until the last few years that porters can be promoted to be stationmasters, but now Traffic Managers rule that no porters can become stationmasters. We have porters learning the duties connected with the work, such as telegraphy, &c, and who have been actually promoted to be stationmasters, but who have been afterwards reduced again to porters, and informed that they could not become stationmasters. Mr. Maxwell: Where is that ? Mr. Edwards : I will refer you to Eemuera : a porter was appointed, and was afterwards told that he could not hold the position. Mr. Maxwell: That must be a mistake :it must be through some misunderstanding. That misunderstanding will be removed. Mr. Hoban: With regard to shunting, Mr. Owen has pointed out to me that in some prominent places boys are in the habit of doing the shunting. They come within this arrangement ? Mr. McKerroiv : We agree to that, where the amount of work requires a man : in main yards, &c. Mr. Hoban: Now we will take the hours of labour. In discussing it several points have cropped up. I would ask you to read your suggestions again. Mr. McKerroiv [having read the proposed regulations, see page 45] : The concession of three hours includes very nearly all the services along the lines. There are a few exceptional cases where there would be " standing" without acknowledgment of pay. If they were paid it would come to this, that men performing the least important services would be receiving the highest pay if we rigidly allowed the excess of time. We have made it so that drivers, firemen, and guards will know what they are entitled to without reference to the foreman. Although sixty hours is recognised as a week's work, it does not follow that a man is to be paid for only three-fourths of that time : sixty hours is the maximum. Mr. Hoban :I am sorry you do not adopt the proposal with regard to eight hours. That is the main point for which we have come up to day. We maintain that ten hours is too much for a day's labour. We say you should adopt the eight-hours system —eight hours work a day or forty-eight hours a week. You make it sixty hours a week. Why do you do it ? Mr. Maxwell : Without the dinner-hour that would be fifty-four. Mr. Hoban : That is all the more reason why we should get the forty-eight hours. We ask you to make a concession of these hours. If you say you will make the concession that will end the whole matter. Mr. McKerroiv :We have gone a long way to meet you. If you act on the corresponding principle id will be right. Mr. Hoban: We go on the principle of what is a fair day's work. I think that, eight hours being the recognised number all over the world, it is time we should get it carried out here. Mr. McKerroiv : It would be a very serious expense. Mr. Hoban : It would be very little extra expense. Mr. McKerroiv : A great deal. Time and a quarter adds up expense quickly. Mr. Hoban : I do not ask for eight hours. I ask definitely whether you will give this fortyeight hours a week concession,