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Mr. Maxwell: There are a good many. Mr. Winter :I am given to understand that in the clerical department—l go upon information received^ and some one may have gone to Christchurch since I was there—such cases do not very often happen. We are bound to say there are more cadets being appointed than there is any need for. There are more cadets than can become clerks ; and you admitted that you could not possibly pay a clerk for doing a boy's work, and therefore care must be taken to prevent the press upward. Mr. McKerrow : Yes ; that will be our plan in future. Mr. Winter: Will you agree to the proposal that a cadet, after five years' service, shall receive a clerk's salary? Mr. McKerrow : No; I said that after live years he shall go on to £110 if a suitable opening occurs, and rise on to £120. He may have to wait, unless there are openings for him. He will have to wait as a cadet, but at the end of six years he will be a clerk, if efficient. Mr. Winter : But that is the question. What is efficiency ? How can we explain that ? Mr. Max-well: You can go back and tell them that they can reach £110 in four years if they like to go up for the Civil Service Examination. If a lad passes the Senior Civil Service Examination, he can reach £110 in three years nine months. It depends upon a man's industry and ability. Mr. Haden : You put it down that it is possible for a smart young man to come to the front in four years. It is a very nice rule to have ; but he has to proceed up by regular stages to the clerk's class, where he has to wait. You said he would be paid if he went in for efficiency ; but many competent men are to be found in the fourth class. Mr. Maxwell : The regulation is this : Cadets who pass the Junior Civil Service Examination will be allowed to count three months' service for it, and cadets who pass the Senior Civil Service Examination will be allowed to count one year's service, and the dates of promotion will be earlier by those periods. Mr. Haden: Well, what we ask for is that a cadet, when he has served his apprenticeship, shall proceed to the class of clerks, and receive the graduated scale as far as he can without waiting ; because if there is any waiting it all points clearly to me that the highway is blocked up for the time being. Some have had to wait two or three years. These are facts I quote—facts from my own observation. If a man stops at the end of his apprenticeship there is an end to progression, and the only inference is that the supply is larger than the demand. If you can see that point and will remedy it, it will remove a great grievance. We have not come to regulate any grievances in particular; but this one we should like to take back and say it was granted. Mr. Winter: Do not you see that it is the wish of these men that the extra year after the apprenticeship is served should be abolished ? Mr. McKerrow: £110 is very fair pay for these young men. I do not think it is any very great hardship if they should have to wait another year. He has to wait another year for the next £10. No doubt, if he gets married £110 is small for his necessities; but, take it another way— if he starts his five years when he is a lad fresh from school, it is no hardship to serve another year. In fact, he may not have to serve another year, as Mr. Maxwell pointed out. At the worst he is on an ascending scale at the end of the year. Mr. Winter : You say there is no hardship. .From a social point of view a man should marry when he is young, and take certain responsibilities, and he should not have to wait until he is bald-headed before he can marry. If he is industrious and thrifty, a young man at twenty-one is thinking of settling down into family life. He should be thinking about the serious aspects of life. We all think that these young men should have the means of accumulating money at this particular period; so that it is a hardship to keep him waiting. You will admit that this is a class of the Service that has to keep up a better appearance than those in the workshops. He has to spend more on his dress, and to look like a gentleman. Mr. McKerrow : That would only make a difference of about £5 a year. Mr. Winter: But there is extra expense. They must, under the conditions, be dressed like gentlemen. Mr. Edwards : They must look like gentlemen, because they occupy a higher position as members of the Civil Service. They cannot save money on £105 a year. Mr. McKerrow : I saved money on considerably less when a lad. Mr. Edwards : You were in a far different position, perhaps, and living under different conditions. I wish to point out that it would not cost a very large amount of money ; and when you look at the fact that these young men are preparing to settle down in life at that particular period, I do not think it is altogether desirable that they should w7ait twelve months before getting a rise in salary. The point is not much. Mr. Winter : I was about to address you on exactly the same lines, and, further, to point out that in this country, according to my observation, a young man does start the performance of domestic duties early, and therefore it would be precisely the time for him to accumulate a little money for the small establishment he might wish to start. Mr. McKerrow : The regulation will be adhered to, that five years shall be the eadetship, but a cadet shall rise to £110 in four years if, as Mr. Maxwell said, vacancies occur. If not, he will be retained as a cadet for six years, and at the end of that time he will be a clerk. Mr. Hoban : I think the clerks will see that that is a fair offer. We shall have to submit it to them. We wanted to get as much as we could, naturally. I think it is fair enough. Mr. Winter: Now, as to porters: Do you concede our request that there shall not be more than one lad porter to four adults. Mr. McKerrow : We have conceded that already. Mr. JSlvines : Extra pay will be allowed to workmen and tradesmen employed more than eight hours, subject to regulations from time to time issued. That is not very definite, Mr. Maxwell : Special cases shall be taken into account.