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18. What does a tram cost you per chain here?—l suppose a tram can be put down now for about £3 to £3 10s. a chain. 19. Wooden rails ?—Yes; they are made out of kauri rickers : they come very cheap that way. 20. What size rails do you put in ?—About Bin. by sin. or Bin. by 6in. 21. There is a great difference in your prices up here ; that accounts for it. You put very large timber in some trams? —Yes ; that and the broken country would make a difference. 22. Do these prices you have given include felling and hauling timber out of the bush, and everything ?—Yes, everything. Of course there are higher prices for bushes more difficult to work ; if they are handy to the river they are cheaper. It has been as high as 2s. for round and 3s. for squared, and trammed for a mile and three-quarters on an average. 23. Mr. Mo7ik.] I would like to put this to Mr. Raymond : Suppose that you had a contract to deliver timber at the Aratapu Mill, would you prefer bringing it down to the Kaihu, six or seven miles, where the logs would float, or bringing it right down to the end of the terminus here (in both cases, you see, you would have to raft) ? Would you not prefer as much as possible putting them into the water and saving haulage between that point and the terminus ? —Yes, most decidedly. It is just a question, as far as the water-carriage is concerned, of what it would cost to get the creek made so that you could bring the timber down. 24. I am speaking of that portion where there is no improvement required—where it is perfectly clear—between here and the flax-mill ?—Oh ! give me the water. I know what rafting can be done for. I had charge of the rafting for three years and a half in the Awakino. 25. You call it rafting—it is what is more generally known as poling. Have you had experience in poling timber down when freshes are on, from the part where they are going down by the fresh to the part where they reach the stop-booms ? —Yes; for three years and a half I had charge at the Awakino. 26. What cost do you think you incurred per 100 ft. upon timber in passing it down that way— what additional cost —that is, after it is put into the creek ? —I kept a rough account of what it cost for rafting, and I found that each succeeding year reduced it, on account of my improving the creek. When I first started with the Awakino it cost as high as sd. per 100 ft., but at the end of three years I took the timber down for l|d. 27. That is by taking away the snags, &c. ?—Yes, I improved the creek every summer—a distance of eleven miles. I knew the distance well because I had walked it so many times. 28. The Awakino was a pretty bad creek ?—Yes, it was very bad ; but I do not think there is a finer creek on this coast now. 29. Mr. Macarthur.] How does it compare with this Kaihu Creek ?—I have only been in the Kaihu once, and that about seven years ago; so that I could not say without going over it again. Of course there is still water in this creek —the Kaihu I mean —and salt water backs it up. In the Awakino it only backs it up to about two miles beyond the booms. 30. Mr. Monk.] What do you think is the difference in value between timber brought out, as you have shown, by trams and bullocks, and placed at the disposal of the saw-mill in a day or two, or a week, and timber that would lie in the creek for six or twelve months, as it would in the Awakino, making it worm-holed ? —I should say the difference would be 30 per cent. 31. Would it not very much depend on the thickness of the sap?—Oh, yes! of course. 32. You are presuming that the sap is thick ? —Yes—6in. 33. Well, that is very heavy?—lt is often met with here; I have frequently seen 9in. of sap. 34. Mr. Macarthur.] Then, in the 4s. you gave, to what class of timber did you apply it. There is a difference of 30 per cent, between the two classes of timber—which could you get 4s. for ? —That would be for the green timber. 35. Then timber that has been driven or rafted would be 30 per cent, less than the other. If it was worm-holed you would have the sap deducted by the mills—if it was worm-holed they would only pay you for the heart?— Yes, if it was your own timber; if the company's, it would not make any difference in the contract price. I think 3s. 9d. is the average price of timber; 4s. is the maximum—that is, for kauri belonging to private individuals. 36. The Chairman.] Have you any knowledge as to the quantity of kauri still available up the Wairoa and up the Maka ?—No, I have not. 37. Of course the price would rise if it was getting scarce ? —Yes. It will cost more every year, I should say. All the close handy timber is pretty well gone. 38. Mr. Monk.] Do you not think the prices which you mentioned in the first place— Is. 9d. and 2s. 2d.—low, as compared with the price that was going for some time? Is your statement of values only a special instance ?—Yes. If I had tendered for the 2s. 2d. contract my price would have been 3s. 39. Is there a great deal of contracting going on—what they call bush contracting and stacking —at a price that proves to be too low, where there is considerable loss and difference between the actual cost of the timber and the contract price, that loss always falling on the mill-owner, being added to the cost of the logs ?—Yes, it has been so in the past, but I understand it is not to be in the future—it is to be at the contractor's loss. 40. Then do you not think, as you say that in the future the intention of the mill-owners is that the bush contractors shall bear the loss, that, as a consequence, the contract prices will rule much higher ? —Yes, I should say the price ought to rule higher. 41. Mr. Macarthur.] They would pay up to 2s. 6d. ?—Yes. 42. Do you think they are getting timber out lower now ?—Yes, decidedly; every one is complaining that there is nothing in the work they are doing. 43. The Chairman.] Have you ever seen any vessels loaded here at the wharf with timber for Australian ports ?—No, not up here; but there was a vessel loaded with kahikatea at Graham's, from some eight miles further up the river. 44. For Australian ports ? —I do not know.