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permitted to be given to show some personal relations between the parties in matters such as are here stated. The defendant would not be allowed to be prejudiced by evidence being brought forward as to personal relations such as are stated here. Mr. Seddon. —Why do you wish to make out that this No. 1 charge is a charge made against the Hon. Sir F. Whitaker? Hon. Mr. Hislop. —l do not know that any charge is made against the Hon. Sir F. Whitaker. That is a statement which is made to prejudice him in the minds of the thoughtless.. Mr. Seddon. —Taking your own showing—you say there is a crisis. Mr. Hutchison refers to that crisis in his charges—that is, the crisis which leads up to what you have culled. Hon. Mr. Hislop. —I have said nothing about a crisis in what I have culled. I have, extracted what I conceive to be the charges—about floating the loan and deficiency bills to fill the coffers of the Bank of New Zealand at a certain time. Nothing about a crisis. The charge is that an abnormal finance was created for the purpose of raising funds to fill the coffers of the Bank of New Zealand and not for the purposes of the colony. Hon. Mr. Ballance. —Would you be good enough to point out in charge No. 1 where there is any imputation not covered by Mr. Hutchison's formulated charges. Hon. Mr. Hislop. —l thought that was apparent from what I have said. Mr. Hutchison's charge is " That pending the raising of the two-million loan " [charge read]. Well, surely that is a very weak and mild statement compared with the extracts which I have already referred to, that extraordinary expedients were resorted to for the purpose of raising this money, that an abnormal finance was created for the emergency, and that this was done not with the view of helping the colony. Mr. Hutchison's formulated charge states that certain things were done with a certain result: in the speech the intention is stated. The thing might have been done with the view of putting the colony right, with the result also of putting the money into the Bank of New Zealand. The gravamen of Mr. Hutchison's charge is that what is described was done with the view of helping the Bank of New Zealand. The statement made by Mr. Hutchison in the House was that an abnormal finance was created for the purpose of helping the Bank of New Zealand, not for the purposes of the colony at all. I say that is not stated explicitly in his charge as formulated. Hon. Mr. Ballance. —You take exception to the word " result " in the charge : you wish it to be " with the view of assisting " ? Hon. Mr. Hislop. —-With the view of assisting the Bank of New Zealand, and not for the purpose of helping the funds of the colony. Hon. Mr. Ballance. —That is covered here in this charge ? Hon. Mr. Hislop. —No, because one thing is included and the other is excluded. He excludes the idea of its being done because of the state of the colony's finance, and he includes the idea of its only being done for the purpose of assisting the Bank of New Zealand. The Chairman. —To save the time of the Committee I may say that, as far as I can gather from discussions in the Committee, we all fully recognise that the whole speech is before us. Hon. Mr. Hislop. —l think, Sir, the fact of Mr. Ballance asking me that question just now shows that he has not taken in the full meaning of the speech. Directly I read that speech it suggested itself to me that the proper motive was excluded, and there was attributed to the Government only the motive the desire to help the Bank of New Zealand. Dr. Fitchett. —That is the charge. Hon. Mr. Hislop. —Yes, but that is not in the charge as formulated by Mr. Hutchison for the Committee. Mr. Seddon. —On that point as regards Sir Frederick Whitaker, I take it—whether rightly- or not I am not prepared to say—that the first paragraph, " Pending the raising of the two-million loan," &c, is leading up to the statement made by Sir Frederick Whitaker in the Legislative Council that the colony was insolvent. Hon. Mr. Hislop. —There is nothing in this about what Sir Frederick Whitaker stated in the Upper House. I have not seen what he said for a long time, but I think what he did say was that we should have to file our schedule in a certain event, and by that was meant that to meet certain engagements it would be necessary to raise money by a certain time. This and insolvency are two different things altogether. Any lawyer knows that when a person says he will have to file his schedule it may simply mean that he cannot meet his engagements as they become due, not that he cannot ultimately meet them. I think Mr. Ballance will appreciate the position when I remind him that when his Ministry left office they left the colony very deeply indebted to the Bank of New Zealand in respect of a particular advance. It was necessary, in order to pay this amount on its due date, to raise money. Now, money might have been raised for the purpose, in the first instance, of filling the coffers of the colony, and by being used to pay this debt it might have had the result of helping the bank; but I say that that idea is excluded entirely by the words which Mr. Hutchison has made use of in his speech. He says in effect that it was not for the purpose of getting money in order to enable the colony to meet its engagements, but our exclusive motive was the wish to put money into the Bank of New Zealand ; and he conveys the idea that it was not entitled to that money. That is the idea running through the whole speech. I say that so far as this charge, as formulated by Mr. Hutchison, is concerned, it is consistent with the idea that the money was got to put into the coffers of the colony for the purpose of paying money which was due by the colony to the Bank of New Zealand, and with the result of finding the money by the half-yearly balance ; but I say that this idea is excluded altogether by the words of Mr. Hutchison's speech. Then, Sir, there is Mr. Hutchison's second charge, and our second charge. The latter part of Mr. Hutchison's extract is the same as our second extract, only that he introduces matter which I do not think is relevant, and which only enlarges the statement without any commensurate benefit. I object altogether to his formulated charge No. 2. Ido not object to the extract, except that it is unnecessarily long. I think it ought to be cut down as much as possible, in order to