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2505. Did you act for Gower? —They all consult me. 2506. Mr. Levi.] Do you know William Williams ? —Yes. 2507. Do you know his general character ? —Yes. 2508. What is it ?—Generally people have a very great respect for Mr. Williams. I personally have known him for a great many years ; in fact, ever since I have been in Patea. When I first went there he was a blacksmith. As far as I know, I have nothing to say against Mr. Williams or his character. lam aware that he filed in the Bankruptcy Court. There were long proceedings taken in the Bankruptcy Court in reference to him. I was Official Trustee in Bankruptcy for his estate. 2509. From your knowledge as trustee for his estate, can you say anything in connection with these bankruptcy proceedings that bears on his character ? —His affairs all came before me; the proceedings were all taken down in writing. His affairs were made the subject of a most exhaustive inquiry before the Courts of law, one lasting over a period of fourteen days. The finding in each case was in favour of the view that all proceedings were perfectly fair. 2510. You mean Williams's proceedings?— Yes. 2511. You mean his conduct?— Yes; his conduct was impugned, and an attempt was made to show that I was trying to favour William Williams as against his creditors. This was gone into as keenly as any question could be gone into. The result was, the Court saw that there was no bearing whatever of that character in the argument. 2512. Do you know of a charge made against him in reference to a sum of £5,000 which, it is alleged, he appropriated ?—Yes. 2513. Do you know of anything in connection yvith it ?—I had it in evidence before me through Mr. Williams. 2514. In what connection ?—Only in connection with the bankruptcy proceedings. 2515. From what you know, how does he come out by the evidence ?—He accounts for the money. 2516. To your satisfaction ?—Yes, to my satisfaction. 2517. How does he account ? does he produce vouchers ? —His bank-book and all his books in connection with it show how he spent the money and what had become of it. 2518. You were satisfied that he had accounted for the money ?—Yes. 2519. In connection with that matter, do you know whether it is a fact that he purchased some land from the Natives in your name?— No. 2520. You told us that at the time these leases were taken up there was a great demand for land ?—Yes. 2521. I would like you to be definite as to dates : when was the great rush for land?— Without actual reference to office-records I could not fix the dates, but I would say from 1875 to 1880. 2522. Did it finish in 1880, or did it culminate then?—l could not say; the thing reached its maximum about that time, and then it began to recede. 2523. Have you had through your hands any sales of these leases ?—No. 2524. In reference to these Gower's leases, I would like to get a little more information. There are tw r o leases; they are exactly similar lands ?—Yes, exactly. 2525. Do you know the amount of bush and so forth on them originally ?—Yes. 2526. Are they the same in both ? —The amount cleared on Matukuroa is about 150 acres; on Patari about 10 or 15 acres. 2527. Did you consider the cost of felling bush and clearing when considering the improvements ?—Yes. 2528. Matakuroa has on it a dwelling-house and other buildings ? —Yes. 2529. Then on Matakuroa an amount of improvement has been done ? —Yes ; but there is not much difference. There is some more logging up on Matakuroa than there is on Patari. 2530. But he has built houses on Matakuroa ?— Yes. 2531. He has cleared the ground. How did you bring them both out from the land ? Did you value them together?—No; we took them quite'separately; they had nothing to do with, each other. 2532. Although one is more improved than the other, you brought them both to the same— that is, Is. Bd. an acre each?—l was not aware that that was so. 2533. Hon. Captain Kenny.] What did you consider improvements? What did improvements in your opinion include? Did it include the uncultivated land ?—Yes. It included buildings, bush-felling, grassing, and any improvement which was unexhausted. We took the land as we found it—land that had the stumps in, which was best land, and also what was inferior land. We put a value on it each separately as it stood with its grass and improvements upon it. Bushland we valued according to its nature, whether it was level so that it could be used, or whether it was steep. Whatever could be used we valued. Even the steep sidings land that could never be ploughed we valued at a price, and also gave a price to what we considered waste. We wrote all these values down. Then we took the value of improvements—buildings, fencing, grassing, clearing, &c. :we deducted these from the total value. Then we based the rent at 5 per cent.: that brought the land back to its natural position in our opinion, plus the added value from the general settlement of the district. 2534. Mr. Levi.] With regard to the Education reserve that adjoins, was not that lease covered with bush? —No, not all. 2535. Do you know it well? —Yes. 2536. How much ?—About 6 or 7 acres were grass land. 2537. How big is it altogether ?—Four hundred acres, or something thereabout, 2538. The greater part was covered with thick bush ?—Yes. 2539. Is it rather rough land?— Yes,