51

G.—l

Act of 1862 the Government of New Zealand having once renounced its pre-emptive right over Native lands it could at any subsequent time resume it. Having once renounced that right, it was not within the competency of any authority in New Zealand to resume an abandoned prerogative of the Crown. It came by treaty, rightly or wrongly, judiciously or otherwise, and it was abandoned; and how therefore you can resume it I cannot understand. That is a matter of law apart from the equity or- justice of the thing. Apart from bare abstract law, I think it from every aspect inexpedient that the Crown should have any pre-emptive power over the lands of the Maori. 664. Then, would you leave it an open question whether the Natives, after their land had passed through the Court, sold or leased to the Crown or dealt with private individuals ?—I should prefer that. You will find that if the Natives were left to deal only with the Crown the Crown would only get the bad lands. The jealousy of the Natives is very great. I got, quite recently, a letter from a tribe about a block of land near Tauranga called Eapainoa, asking me to take up their case against the Crown, but I did not think it proper for me to do so. And, mind, it is a losing business. Perhaps you will remember that return which was laid before the House of Eepresentatives by Mr. Bryce, I think it was, when his Government came into office—l mean the Government of which he was a member; I forget who was Premier. Mr. Mackay : Sir John Hall was Premier. Witness: Yes, it was Sir John Hall. That return, extended over ten years, and it gave the amount expended in the purchase of Native lands, exclusive of the liabilities (which I suppose were as great) and unclaimed money. That amount was two millions odd. You will find the receipts for the same period £658, of which half was paid in the form of scrip. I have a copy of the return. It is very instructive. I assure you, as a man who has been engaged in cultivating land, that I would not have land in places like the Kaingaroa Plains at Id. an acre, if you consider that the cost of fencing a square mile—64o acres —in accessible country, to which wire for the fencing is easily brought, is at the lowest price about £60 —that is, £240 for the 640 acres. Mr. Tetley, I think, put sheep on those plains and never got one of them again. They all disappeared. How, I know not; but they say that there is something poisonous up there to animal life. 665. Mr. Bees.] Speaking of fencing in large blocks of land where there are numbers of owners, especially in broken country and poor land, if the land were to be subdivided amongst all the owners, would not the cost of the surveys and the Court-fees swallow up the whole value of the land ? —Entirely. I can give you, as an illustration, my own case, because I can speak of that with great confidence. I have been four or five years now in possession of the property to which I have referred, and now my two sons are on it; in fact, it belongs to them now. We worked hard, and before we could make it pay expenses we had to make thirty miles of fencing, including necessary subdivisions; because when you get sheep it is an advantage to keep them moving about, and not to confine them in one paddock. But if they are allowed to run about over the country they harm themselves, and do no good. Fencing under such circumstances is a thing that you must do, and it is impossible for a poor man to pay for it. 666. Mr. Mackay.] Would that fencing cost you about 15s. a chain?—About that. 667. Mr. Bees.] In all these large blocks owned by large numbers of Natives, carrying out the same idea you have expressed, you say it is advisable they should be dealt with as tribal lands by the consent of the people, and that the titles should be given in some cheap and inexpensive way ? —I think so, decidedly. I should allow leases. I may be contrary to the spirit of the age, but, speaking from my own experience, I would say that if you can find a large purchaser who will be likely to fence in the land and spend money in turning it to account, you will get much more money for taxes, and do better for the money, for by getting wool and other articles of export from the land we shall be all the better able to pay the interest of our national debt. 668. Mr. Mackay.] Should there not be a condition that the purchaser should utilise the land within, say, a certain time, or the lessee—as the case might be ?—I should not like to answer that without consideration. I think the more restrictions and burdens you put on capital the less capital you will have to restrict. The man who has got 10,000 acres of land bought it in order to get something for his money, of course; and a man when he is purchasing an estate takes all these little things into consideration—taxation, cost of fencing, and so on —and if you add to them inconvenient restrictions he declines to have anything to do with it. 669. Mr. Bees.] I suppose you can speak of your own knowledge as to large areas of land held by the Natives being suitable for settlement? —Suitable or unsuitable? 670. Well, both ?—There are large tracts which are entirely unsuitable, and there is also a lot of good land, but in small quantities, when you get south of Eotorua. From Eotorua to Taupo, as you ride in the coach, it gets worthless, in my opinion. 671. But down towards Kawhia and Taranaki? There is fine land there; and if you want land for the smaller class of settlers that is the place for them. It is broken but fertile, and, being broken, it is not the kind of country adapted for large landowners to run sheep and cattle upon. Even cattle become expensive when there is such difficulty to find them once they get into a forest. But a place like that might do very well for small settlers. 672. It is a good fruit-country, is it not?—Yes: in my time Waihorakeke was a forest of splendid peaches, and it would be a very fine fruit-country. 673. Mr. Mackay.] I suppose they have got their enemies here, the blackbird and thrush? —They are awful pests, those birds. I have nearly exterminated the sparrow at my place. As for these caterpillars with which we were threatened after the destruction of the sparrow, they have not appeared at all. 674. Do you think that the"Judges who administer these Native-land affairs should have the same status as Judges of the Supreme Court ?—I do, strongly. I thought so in 1865 ; but I could only get the principle applied to the Chief Judge during good behaviour, and even that was afterwards taken away by the Act of 1873. I always thought that the great principle should be that