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the Government. All the Crown land in New Zealand belongs to the whole of the people of New Zealand—Maoris and Europeans alike. Directly the Government buys a block of land from the Natives that land belongs to all the people of New Zealand—Natives and Europeans alike. But all the people could not sign the deed for that. So they make a law by which people can take it, and then the Governor signs the deeds. Supposing there are five hundred owners in a block of Native land, including in these five hundred a hundred children, how could they work together? Are the five hundred to sign the deed ? Every Maori signature costs £2. There is the interpreter, the lawyer, the Justice of the Peace, and the Trust Commissioner, and then, too, there is the Native Land Court. Every signature before the transaction is finished costs about £3 or £4 by the time the matter comes to the Native Land Court and to the Trust Commissioner's Court. Now, would it not be better for the Maoris, if they could make sure that the land would be properly used, to choose their own people to act with a Government Commissioner, the people having all the necessary power of telling them what to do. The Committee and the Government Commissioner would have to be the servants of the people, to do what they were told by the people. And then all the expense of the deeds, of the Trust Commissioner's Court, of the Native Land Court, would be avoided. Besides, now the Europeans are afraid to deal, because even after they have obtained their deeds from the Maoris, and after they have entered into possession of the land, some one else may claim the land, and they maybe turned out. And as long as this 10-per-cent. duty has to be paid by the Maoris, and surveys have to be made of these lands, and all these signatures have to be paid for, the Maoris cannot expect to get anything for their lands, and the money goes. What we propose is, that the land should not be sold, but leased under the hand of the Maori people through their Committees and the Government Commissioners. At present all the cost of the Crown deeds, of the Native Land Court, of the Trust Commissioner's Court, and of the Native duty is so much taken away from the value of the land. The European does not pay it, but the land does. And therefore we say this is a very cumbrous method of doing things. Which of the Maoris will go and walk down to Auckland if he has money in his pocket, instead of getting into the train and being swiftly carried there ? Which of the Maoris would take a canoe to go through the Waikato, or to Eaglan, or other places, if he can get into a steamer and travel by it to his destination ? Now, that is just the difference between the present method of dealing with the Maori lands and the way we propose. We propose the train and the steamer instead of merely walking or travelling by the canoe. We propose to the Maoris exactly what the Europeans are always doing in respect of their lands where there are a number of owners. And the Maoris must not forget that already these Councils are beginning to rate their lands, and that before long, while their lands are lying useless, Parliament will be compelled by the people to place a tax on these lands. They ought to be getting a revenue from their lands by letting Europeans use them, and pay the taxes on them. Now, of all lands that have passed through the Court in this district, and been dealt with by the Natives, is there any individual here who has £5 left out of the price ? Of all the lands they have sold ? And, if they go on just in the same way they have been going on one individual may get £5 out of the price paid for a block of land, and another may get £10, and so on ; but after that the land will be gone, and the money obtained for it as well, and there will be nothing left to show for it. And if they deal with their land one by one they will not be able to make reserves. It is only when they act all together that they can get reserves made ; and it is only when the owners act together in one body that they can get a proper price for their land, whether they sell or lease. What we want to get them to say is, that they will act together, because if they act one by7 one they can do nothing, and our object is to bind them together—to give them that strength which comes from union. Now, we should like to have an expression of opinion from any of the Natives, or to have them ask questions of Mr. Mackay and myself, because this matter is of immense importance to the Maoris. I would like to mention that Mr. Ballance did not go nearly far enough. He took all the power out of the hands of the Natives. We do not propose to do that. The Natives had to give away the entire control of their lands. We do not propose that. We want to keep the Natives working as well as the Europeans, to see that everything is fair. Pepene Eketone : With regard to what you say touching cases in which large numbers of Europeans own land and only a few of them sign the deeds, I would merely remark that if anything goes wrong all the others are injured by it, and that is what we are afraid of. With regard to Commissioners, from any lands that from the beginning have been taken over by the Government no advantage has come. We see that in the case of the land at Eotorua. The Government leased that land, and there has been no advantage to the Natives arising out of it. Then, too, the Natives are in the same unsatisfactory state with regard to the land on the West Coast. As I said in the beginning, we are taken somewhat suddenly with regard to these matters, and we are simply expressing the views that first come to us. What I think would be a very good thing would be if we could have printed what has been said, and have it circulated among the Natives. It is a very difficult thing for people to be able to accept at once that which has for the first time been put before them. Mr. Bees :It is quite true about the Eotorua lands. That is because they w7ere taken out of the control of the Natives altogether and handed over to the Government. If there had been a Native Committee chosen by the Eotorua people, and a Government Commissioner appointed to act with the Native Committee, that fuss would not have happened. They would have got their rents. The same remark holds good with reference to the complaints that are made on the W Test Coast. In all matters where the Natives make complaints it was the Government alone that had control, and the Government chose not to collect the rents, for purposes of their own. Even in the case of the West Coast lands I am told by Mr. Mackay that the rents were only abated for a time, and will have to be paid. In the case of the Eotorua lands, if there had been partial control by a Committee of the Natives working with the Government Commissioner there would have been no difficulty there at all. You see, there are two extremes : there is the keeping of the lands in the B—G. 1.