15

G.—l

people—viz., that certain claimants undertake a survey and carry it through, and it is then found that the land does not belong to them at all, but that it is awarded to somebody else, these people being then made to pay for a survey which Avas carried out without their sanction, but by people who are found not to be the OAvners. I will hoav say something about the Committee. I approve of what. Te Heuheu has said to-night. Of course I can say nothing as to what may be in the minds of the people who are here to-night, but I may say that, as to those matters Avhich I have heard of here, I approve of them. I also agree with Avhat Wiari said as to the cost of the surveys being reduced to Jd. an acre, and the charge remaining at that figure. Mr. Bees : I Avant to ask Te Heuheu, and then Tokena, a few questions. The Commissioners have heard Avith great pleasure Avhat has been said to-night. We Avant to ask Te Heuheu and Tokena, first of all, whether the chiefs present are fairly representative of the chiefs of one part of the Ngatituwharetoa ? Tureiti te Heuheu : There are not many absent—that is, of the western part of the tribe. Mr. Bees : Can Te Heuheu, one of the youngest, and Tokena, one of the oldest chiefs, tell us whether the eastern part of the Ngatituwharetoa are of the same mind about the Committee? Te Heuheu : Yes; those chiefs who are present here to-night are from the western side and also from the eastern side. Mr. Bees : Then, there are some here who belong to the eastern side ? Tureiti te Heuheu : Yes. Mr. Bees : Then the Commissioners may safely say in their report that NgatituAvharetoa generally, both western and eastern divisions, wish for a Committee ? Tureiti te Heuheu: Yes ; I have no hesitation in giving that reply. Mr. Bees : About how many people are there in the Ngatituwharetoa ? Mr. L. M. Grace: I can ansAver that question, as I took the census the other day. On the Avestern side I made their number to be about six hundred and forty—that is, including absentees; on the eastern side, starting from TaraAvera and going down to Galatea and up to the southern end of the lake, about one thousand. I may say that some NgatituAVbaretoa live about Tuhua and other places, and these would not be in this enumeration. Mr. Bees : Then, they come up to about tAvo thousand ? Mr. L. M. Grace : Quite that. Mr. Bees : Can Te Heuheu give us any idea of the extent of the territories belonging to NgatittiAvharetoa ? Tureiti te Heuheu : If you saAV a map of Tauponuiatia hanging up in the Courthouse, it includes the whole of the tribal boundaries. The unsold territories in our possession amount to about a million and a half acres. Mr. Bees : We are very glad to have met you to-night. Many of you know that Pepene appeared to-day and rather disagreed AA 7ith the vieAVS of the Commissioners in the Native Land Courthouse, stating that the people wanted more time to think ovter the matter. I Avas struck Avith the fact that there Avere evidently feAV of the chiefs of any of the tribes present Avhen Pepene spoke. And a feAv of those who Avere present dissented from what Pepene said against the views of the Commissioners, and intimated that they Avished the talk about it printed and circulated amongst the people, stating also that the people generally would adhere to what the Commissioners said. Noav, the meeting to-night is evidently a much more representative meeting of the leaders of the people than any that Pepene represented to-day. And I think that both the Government and the Parliament will be pleased to knoAv that a great tribe like the Ngatituwharetoa almost unauimously, if not quite unanimously, desire this change, so that they may manage these matters for their oavh benefit and for the benefit of the Europeans also. We shall have the statement of the Commissioners most likely printed along with extracts from the speeches of Te Heuheu and Tokena, together with some of the other statements, and we will send copies for circulation among you and your people.

Kawakawa, Ist Aram, 1891. The Commission sat in the Resident Magistrate's Courthouse at 2 p.m. Present: Messrs. W. L. Reos, M.H.E., and Thomas Mackay (Commissioners), and a number of Ngapuhi chiefs and people. Mr. Bees : The Commissioners are glad to see the Natives who are here present. Although they have appointed their meeting to take place at Wairnate, I shall take the opportunity to state shortly upon what subjects we are prepared to hear opinions from the Natives. In the first place the Commissioners would like the opinion of the Maoris in relation to the working of the Native Land Court—whether it gives satisfaction to the Maoris, and, if not, in what respects they would like it altered. The second point upon which Ave should like to get an expression of opinion from the Maoris is as to whether the present laws regulating dealings with the Maori land suit the Maoris, or whether they would like an alteration in those laws so as to revert to some extent to public tribal dealings with the land instead of continuing the present individual dealings. Now, as to the Native Land Court, of course we include in that all questions as to whether the present system of surveys is what the Maoris think wise and good. We shall be pleased to hear any statement made by any Native Avho has knowledge of those things : first of all his opinion, or what he knows to be the opinion of the Maoris generally. When any statement like that has been made then, after, he has finished speaking what he thinks is proper, the Commissioners will ask questions. And the Maoris will remember this : the Commissioners come not merely to inquire into the grievances of the Maoris, but to inquire into those grievances for the purpose of recommending Parliament to make such laws as will secure justice. Now, then, upon these two subjects—the working of the Native Land Court and the surveys, and the laws by which they deal with their lands, Ave shall be glad to hear any Maori, and especially the leading chiefs, speak.