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sionally more, according to the position and shape of the structure, and this entails an enlarged cubic space." Do you agree with that ? —I do. 4949. The amount of space in surgical wards here has been reckoned at 78 square feet per patient; do you think that is anything like sufficient?—lt is not. 4950. The book that you have quoted from gives the bed-space and the cubic space that should be allowed to patients where there is sufficient ventilation. Is it more or less necessary that the authorities should be careful about these matters in hospitals where ventilation is defective ? —More careful where the ventilation is defective. The object of ventilation is to renew the airsupply without inconvenience. 4951. The evils that we have been speaking about would be intensified in the case of a hospital that was imperfectly ventilated ?—Certainly. 4952. [List of operations (classified), Exhibit liv., put in.] You have already told us that little or no value is to be placed on statistics ? —Yes. I have had a good deal to do with statistics, and 1 have found them very convenient things. By taking them out of their surroundings you can manipulate them very much as you like, and make your results agree with anything you please. 4953. Are you acquainted with the Christchurch Hospital?— No. I have not seen it. 4954. From the evidence which has been given here, we have been led to believe that its surgical wards are very perfect in the way of ventilation, temperature, Ac. Do you think that cases treated in a hospital like that are more likely to be successful than in ours? —Certainly. 4954. Then these things may be a factor in achieving success, as contrasted with the results which we know to have happened in Dunedin ? —Yes ; but I consider that a carefully-carried-out system of antiseptic treatment may enable operations to be successfully performed even under unfavourable surroundings. 4956. By a somewhat expensive process ? —lt is, more or less. 4957. But these precautions add greatly to the expense ?—-It is done by most surgeons. I must confess that I have never used the knife myself except for slight things; therefore I only speak from observation of other men's work. 4958. We have been told that no form of Listerism is absolutely perfect; that while Listerism can do a great deal, it cannot do everything? —There is nothing perfect in this world. But if Listerism is thoroughly carried out by skilful surgeons, aided by competent nurses, everybody must admit that it is capable of achieving such wonders that it practically reduces extra risks almost to a minimum. 4959. So that, notwithstanding the great hygienic defects of this Hospital, and the grave danger to patients from septic poisoning ? —But is that so ? 4960. Well, I will put it this way : Assuming that there is a grave danger to the patients from septic poisoning, can Listerism do more than prevent the results of that danger showing to a very large extent; in other words, is it not the fact that occasionally bad effects will show themselves, despite all your precautions ?—Yes. But there is not the same liability, if there have been skilful surgeons, aided by good nursing, dressing, &c. 4961. Do you admit that the sanitary condition of the Dunedin Hospital is defective in a good many respects, which are, of course, intensified by the wards being overcrowded?—l can only speak from my own experience, and my cases have done well in the Hospital. 4962. But you have already told us that you have had only eight months' experience in the Hospital ? —I have been a good many years in practice, and I have treated poor patients in their homes in Scotland, but have not seen better results than I have in this Hospital. I think many of our patients here are better circumstanced than in their own homes. 4963. Do you think, as a reasonable man, that a Hospital which has so many defects—that has been placed on an improper basis, has surrounding it drains that are filled with stagnant water, that is placed in one of the most unhealthy parts of the town, which has foul air constantly wafted into it, which has insufficient ventilation, and which is overcrowded —can be possibly kept in anything like a healthy condition ?—lt may be comparatively healthy, but it cannot be perfectly healthy. It is as healthy as the majority of hospitals in the world, and I put it down as an averagely good Hospital. 4964. Do you think it as good a Hospital as it should be under ordinary circumstances ?—I repeat that it is as healthy as the majority of hospitals, and I have seen a good many. 4965. Tell us in what respects it is better than the worst hospitals you have seen?—lt is as good as old Aberdeen, which has done good service for fifty years or more. 4966. Then, tell me some of the defects which that hospital had which it should not have had ? —It had narrow and unventilated corridors, waterclosets in the centre of the building opening into corridors, and such-like. 4967. Were some of the wards more crowded than others? —In the medical wards the beds were too close together, and there was no cross-ventilation. 4968. We have had handed in to us a list of cases treated in the Christchurch Hospital, which is admittedly superior to outs hygienically. They had, during a stated time, 146 operations, with one death, whilst in the Dunedin Hospital, during the same period, w re had 123 operations, with twenty-one deaths. On what theory do you explain that difference, seeing that the cases treated were equally serious ? Has Dunedin or Christchurch the best means ? —-Circumstances may have a great deal to do with it. 4969. Which w Tould you lay the greater stress on ?—I have already stated it is easy to make statistics prove just what you .wish. It is perfectly well known that some hospitals show better results, because moribund cases are not taken in, in order that they shall not appear against the hospital in the statistics; but taking those statistics you have given, without any reservation, I say that the results are too good to be believed. The Christchurch Hospital must be a pattern hospital,