D.—4

330

208. As a matter of fact, what are the freights by ship now ?—I do not know personally. The shipping rates are quite different to the railway rates. They are based on measurement, and therefore to compare a railway-rate with a ship-rate, it is a matter of ignorance to attempt it, unless you know the character of the goods, and how they will compare as to measurement and weight. But, generally speaking, throughout the colony similar journeys are usually done for 10s. per ton measurement. It may be more in this case; Ido not know. 209. Then with regard to coal, which you put down at 50,000 tons ? —Yes; 50,000 tons of coal is put down. I understand that 80,000 tons of native coal is the quantity imported into Lyttelton per annum ; and, when I take into consideration that Westport is not going to give up her trade without a struggle, and neither is Newcastle, I think that in allowing 50,000 tons out of a trade of 80,000 (that is the quantity of native coals imported into Lyttelton), we are taking a very sanguine view that this railway will get that quantity for many years to come. Then another matter I took into consideration was this, that a great deal of coal will be used at Lyttelton for the purposes of the shipping. Ido not see how we can hope to secure this coal traffic at Lyttelton. I think the coal traffic we have an advantage in securing is the household trade of Christchurch and the surrounding districts, because we have this advantage, that the coal is put into the truck, and, with reasonable management, it may be carried on that truck to the carts which deliver it to the consumer, thereby avoiding constant handling and damage to the coal. Now, we shall get a good deal of coal business in Christchurch and the surrounding districts within a certain area, but I do not think we shall get any traffic to Lyttelton. And on that basis 50,000 tons is a very liberal estimate as to the amount of business likely to be secured for a very long time to come. 210. In regard to agricultural produce, how did you arrive at that estimate ?—ln exactly the same way. In the case of agricultural produce, we get very much better loads per truck, and therefore we can afford to carry it for less per ton. The question of rate is very much dependent upon the dead-weight per truck that we could secure ; therefore, you can charge a very much lower rate if you get five tons in a truck. With regard to the quantity, flour is a very large article of consumption as far as dead-weight is concerned. It is included in the agricultural rate, and so are potatoes, oats, and grain of all kinds ; and, therefore, to put down 10,000 tons as the amount to be carried by the railway is, I think, a fair estimate of the quantity likely to be obtained, taking into consideration the population and sea competition. 211. Of course, the sea competition operates there with full force ?—Certainly it does, because it operates from all parts-: you have the Wanganui people, the Wellington people, the Canterbury people, and also Southland and Dunedin people, to compete against. All those districts will send produce to the West Coast by sea. 212. Then, with regard to timber?— The same remark applies to the timber that applies to merchandise, and particularly in this case. Where you have an article such as timber, unless you carry it at a low rate, you will not get it at all. In actual practice, in New Zealand, you will find that you cannot get your scale rates for very long distances. If you refer to our tariff, you will find that we have had to bring our rates down in Southland, in order to secure the timber trade between Southland and Dunedin. Also in the case of Timaru. We take timber now to about as far as Ashburton ; but as for securing the ordinary mileage rate for that distance, we cannot do it. We have to bring it down ; and then we find ships taking it from the nearest port competing with us, and we simply getting the business from the local ports. So that in computing the timber generally at the rate I have done here, I have taken into consideration all the circumstances I have mentioned. I should also like to remark that this export timber trade will always have competition; the West Coast is not going to have it all its own way. There is the Pelorus district, the Wanganui district, the Wellington district, and there is the kauri from the North. All these timbers are coming into competition with the West Coast timber, and if it is possible for the West Coast to secure the trade, it must secure it on the basis of the rates that people are prepared to give; therefore, you cannot pay a very high railage rate for timber overland, for such long distances as indicated in this paper. You must take into consideration any strong competition that you may have, and especially you have to take into consideration the carriage of the stuff over the Government railway from Christchurch or Lyttelton, as the case may be, to Springfield, a distance of from forty-five to fifty miles. On the other hand you have the railway from Brunner to the Grey, where your population is. You have also to add this charge, because the Government railways are also required to carry the goods, and the Government rate has to be added before we get the through rate for carriage from the producer to the consumer; and the rates referred to do not represent the through rate from the warehouse to the consumer, or from the producer to the consumer. They represent a proportion of the through rate, minus the Government charges. 213. How do you get the quantity —six millions ?—The way we got it was this : we considered the timber that is now being carried, and we considered that there will still be a quantity to be carried by us, and, after allowing for reasonable sea competition, we put down the amount stated as the maximum quantity of timber that we expected to carry. 214. Did you think the company could carry cattle for that charge of £3 45., instead of £2 Bs. ?—So far as cattle are concerned, I am very doubtful whether we shall carry them at all between Canterbury and the West Coast, on the ground that they are easily driven. lam not very sanguine about the carriage of cattle by this railway. You see we have allowed about 6s. a head for the company's proportion, which is a very high rate to pay on cattle. It is different in the case of sheep. We have allowed for sheep about lOd. a head, and I think we might get sheep to carry on that line, because sheep lose a great deal by being driven. Ido not think you will get more than the number I have set down. We have had general complaints in the colony that the charges for the carriage of live-stock are very high. In fact, quite recently the Government reduced the rates on