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H.—2.

society will not be able to pay surrender values or anything else if it is on a wrong basis ?—I prefer that it should remain as it is now, and let the Union Company still have the control. That is only as far as I am concerned. 213. Mr. Fisher.] At your age you do not care very much about change?— No. 214. The Chairman.] Unless the change is for the better ?—I do not think it could be carried on any better than it is. In fact, I should be very sorry if the Union Company gave it up. 215. Mr. Fisher.] But, still, you are aware that there are complaints?—l have heard rumours of them, but nothing personally. 216. The complaints have gone so far as to reach the stage of petitions to Parliament ?—Yes ? I was not aware of that. I have heard rumours of it. 217. The petition to Parliament refers not to the Union Company but to another company, but the complaint is urged against a similar thing—the existence of private benefit societies—so you see the complaint is not applicable to the Union Company alone : it applies to the existence of a system of private benefit societies, because it appears that these societies bring with them the principle of compulsion, against which the men revolt ?—Not with the Union Steamship Company, that I am aware of. lam an employer of labour, and Ido not inquire whether the men belong to the society or not. 218. The Chairman.] You may not, but do you not think the benefit society does ? Here is the preface to the rules as printed in 1891: " All present employes of the company as defined in the rules may within three months become members of the society, without payment of an entrance-fee, on passing the necessary medical examination. It shall not, however, be compulsory for them to join the society, though all who join the company's service in future shall be required to do so, and pay an entrance-fee in accordance with the rules, within one month of their joining the Union Company's service." That looks like compulsion?—l think that is all done away with. 219. I will read the new Eule No. 5 : " Every employe in the deck, engine-room, stokehold, and stewards' and cooks' departments of the company's vessels and shore employes of the company who shall be certified by a medical officer of the society as being in sound health, and not suffering from any contagious disease, shall, except as hereinafter otherwise provided, become an ordinary member of the society." That is now in existence, the exception being that they can belong to another friendly society, but that unless they belong to another friendly society it says they shall become a member of the Union Company's society. That looks like compulsion ? —I think that is done away with now. 220. But it is in the rule at present in force ? —So far as I know, it is not compulsory, whether they belong to any other society or not.

Friday, 21st May, 1897. William Belcher was examined on oath. 1. The Chairman.] What is your occupation ? —I am a seaman, and lam the general secretary of the Federated Seamen's Union at the head office, which controls the other branches in New Zealand. 2. How long have you held that position ?—For three years and one month. 3. You have seen the evidence of the witnesses at this inquiry, as printed in the newspapers ?— Yes. 4. Does the evidence which has been given fairly represent the position?—No; I do not think it does. It must be understood, Mr. Chairman, that lam not a member of the Union Steamship Company's Mutual Benefit Society, and anything that I might have to say in connection with the matter must be necessarily to a large extent hearsay evidence, but the position that I hold naturally brings me into contact with a number of the men, who express their opinions to me with reference to their feelings towards this society much more freely than they are likely to do either to you or any one else. Mr. Fisher ; That is what we want to get at. Witness : I think it is obvious that any man who is employed by the Union Steamship Company, or any other employer, and who comes here to give evidence before you, must be embarrassed to a certain extent, seeing that his bread and butter and living is the gift of the Union Company to him. 5. Hon. Major Steward.] Well, then, as you are familiar with the evidence given, and, I have no doubt, wish to represent the true position to the Commissioners, would you be able now, before we address any questions to you, to make a general statement bringing out points which you think ought to be known to the Commissioners, and framing it in your own words?— Yes. 6. Mr. Fisher.] I would like you, for the information of the Commissioners generally, to give us a general survey, if you can, of what we may call the position? —That will necessitate me starting at another point from that which I intended, but I will start at that point. You are aware, and every one is aware, that the Union Company's benefit society is in existence. Now, I take it it is necessary to know or to have some idea or to assume why that benefit society was brought into existence. I merely give my own opinion in connection with this matter, but I think it is borne out by the actions of the Union Company since the inception of the benefit society ; and I merely give it as my own opinion that this society was first instituted with the object of giving the Union Company a hold over their men, and also with the object of trying to retard the progress of the Seamen's Union. In passing, I might say that Ido not wish it to be understood that I come here with the object of advocating the Seamen's Union or the business of the Seamen's Union. Ido not wish that to be understood at all. I am merely giving my opinion why the society was incepted, and I must necessarily refer to the Seamen's Union in doing that. You are all aware that