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asked the people to refund me my £5,000. I have lands of my own outside these lands, but the lands of other hapus of mine have all gone to the company. I have no designs on these Natives, and do not know why they should send in a petition like this. I am sure that if the company were to demand the money the Natives would not be ready with it, but would say, " Take the land and manage it." 20. Mr. Kaihau.] Are those who signed the petition on the committee mentioned by you ?— Some are. 21. Did any of these petitioners receive money from the company?— Some did, but not all. It was the committees who received the money, and these people take advantage of the fact to say that the money was not distributed amongst them. 22. Could it be proved how many of these received money? —Yes. 23. About those applications that were sent in and withdrawn ?—We withdrew them for the time being until we saw the people. 24. The Chairman.] For what amount of money against the land had the trustees become responsible to the company ?—I do not know. 25. And they, as trustees, are paying interest at the present time ? —Yes. 26. How much?—l cannot say, but it is a large amount —6-J- per cent., I think. 27. Mr. Heke.] A little over £4,000 a year. Is any revenue being received from these lands at the present time ?—Yes. Some blocks are being improved ; there are about 100,000 acres which are not improved, and which we cannot improve. The blocks that we are improving comprise one of about 7,000 acres, two of 5,000 acres, and one of 15,000 acres. Of the last we have improved only 5,000 acres. All the revenue from the land is consumed in interest. In reference to the lawyers' expenses in connection with these lands, I advised the company to pay them; if they did not do so, the burden would, of course, fall on the Natives. The Chairman : I am rather surprised at Mr. Wi Pere coming here now and railing against the lawyers, when he did not support me in my endeavours to have lawyers excluded from all the Native Land Courts. Mr. Heke: Mr. Wi Pere does not take into consideration that the people who lend these moneys must be represented, and, of course, you cannot bar them from having local representatives. Mr. Wi Pere : There is one matter that I would like to mention again, and that is that behind this man Pokiha are the lawyers, who are putting the Natives on to fight. 28. The Chairman (to Judge Batham).] Do you wish to make any further remarks since you have heard Mr. Wi Pere ? —I would like to mention that the debt of these trustees, which was due in June last, is, as near as I can ascertain, £130,000, the bulk of it being to the Estates Company. For many years this debt carried interest at the rate of 9 per cent, with half-yearly rests and compound interest. The interest now is 6or 6-J- per cent. The mortgagees are in possession of the land, and they are the best managers, because the trustees have no capital to undertake the management. 29. Then, the trustees are merely managers in name ?—Yes. Only a very small portion of the land is being utilised, and the interest, commission, &c, are increasing the debt, I suppose, by from £5,000 to £7,000 a year. 30. Mr. Heke.] Are law expenses included in that sum ?—No. The law expenses have been very heavy indeed, and it has been quite beyond the power of the Court to control them. 31. Then, this sum represents only the expenses for attending the Court, and the interest?—lt represents interest and the commission for management—that is all. 32. The Chairman.] And this is being added to the principal ?—Yes. 33. Apparently, then, these lands will ultimately be sold?— There is very little margin indeed. 34. Mr. Heke.] Have you any idea as to what income is coming from these properties?— I cannot give any reliable information. The Estates Company, as I mentioned, is the manager, and the accounts are extremely involved. There is some stock running on the land, and some rents are coming in. I believe that last year something like £2,000 went towards paying interest and commission. 35. Mr. E. G. Allen.] Are the whole of the liabilities on the property due to the Estates Company, or are there other creditors ?—A very large proportion—nearly the whole—of the liabilities is due to the company, but there are other claims, chiefly for law expenses, and running into about £15,000 or £20,000. 36. This £130,000 indebtedness is outside the proceeds from the land that was sold ? —Yes. Some sixty thousand pounds' worth was sold. 37. What is the area of the land still unsold?—lt is rather hard to answer that. I should say about 100,000 acres. Mr. Heke : It is close on half a million acres, I believe. Judge Batham : Some blocks vested in Messrs. Carroll and Wi Pere may or may not be found to be part of these estates. They have been vested in those gentlemen on grounds which, after investigation, would scarcely hold water. 38. The Chairman.] If the trusteeship of Messrs. Carroll and Wi Pere were carried out properly, do you think it would be to the interests of the Natives?—So far as I can judge, they are only nominal trustees. The management is done by Mr. W. L. Eees, and he is a solicitor. The fact is, matters are left very much in Mr. Eees's hands. 39. Mr. E. G. Allen.] Are the trustees not supposed to get any payment for looking after this enormous property ?—I think they are to get £500 each, supposed to represent moneys paid out of pocket some years ago. Mr. Heke : But they receive those moneys not as salaries, but simply as refunds. Mr. E. G. Allen : It is too much to expect any one to undertake for nothing.