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then there have been hardly any tote-shops; in fact, there are none. Ido not say that betting has lessened at all, but it is done in a different way. 501. How is it done now ? —lt is done in the street, by what is called " straight-out " wagering. 502. How do they work that ?—Well, they lay 5 to 2, or 7to 2. That is what they call " straight-out " wagering. 503. Not the name of the horses?— They do it in a way they understand themselves. Ido not say it is tote-odds, but they know it is. 504. Do they enter the names of the horses?— No. They know themselves. 505. Have they a cipher?— They must have. 506. You have never seen one of these books in which they make their entries?—l have made it my business to make inquiries of people who have seen them. 507. And they do not put down the names of the horses ?—No. 508. Simply a record of the wager?— Yes. 509. And the name of the person? —No. 510. They used to put in both ?—Yes, but then they also used to put down the name of the particular race and horse. 511. That would help you to get witnesses ?—Yes. 512. You think in Wellington they have ceased entering the names of people doing business with them ?—There is no doubt about that. 513. You cannot speak of any other centre ?—No. 514. You say, since that time —five years or more—there have been no tote-shops ?—Not what I would call tote-shops. Ido not say betting has not gone on just the same. 515. Supposing Mr. Pirani said there was a tote-shop in Featherston Street?— They are not there to my knowledge. 516. You do not know of them ? —No. 517. Do you know of one in Grey Street ?—I have already referred to that in my report as an office kept by a book-maker. 518. Is it kept by a book-maker ? —I see him using it there, and standing outside. 519. Does he stand outside all day ?—Yes, I have seen him whenever I have passed along. 520. Does he sit down ?—On the window-sill, sometimes he does. 521. Is there one in a lane off Willis Street ?—Not to my knowledge. 522. Do you know Anderson's place, in Willis Street ?—Yes. 523. Do you know a billiard-saloon just this side ?—Yes. 524. Have you ever been inside ?—Yes. 525. Who is it occupied by?— Mr. Wise. 526. Have you been inside often ?—Yes, pretty frequently. 527. Can you recognise that plan of it ?—Yes. 528. Are there two billiard-tables—one in the large room and then another further on ?—I have been in there, but I am not certain. 529. Have you been in the small room alongside the billiard-room ? —No, I have not been in the private part of the saloon. 530. Have you ever been in the compartment marked " private room " ?—No. 531. Have you ever seen it open? —No. 532. Is there any sign on the door?— Not that I remember. 533. Is it not marked "private"?—lt may be. 1 have never heard it suggested that there is anything wrong there. 534. Would you arrest any one for gambling ? Is card-playing for money, gambling ? Supposing a number of youths gathered in that room for the purpose of gambling—would that be gambling ? —Yes, that would be termed a gambling-house. 535. How often have you been in that billiard saloon?—I cannot say, but my attention has never been drawn to that place as a gambling saloon. Of all the matters I have heard I have never heard any person suggesting gambling going on there. 536. Is there any tote-shop or betting-office in Lambton Quay?— No. 537. Any in Manners Street?— No. I have heard it suggested that there is one there at a tobacconist's shop in Manners Street, but I never saw anything going on there in the nature of betting. 538. Is there a tobacconist in Manners Street named Whittaker ?—No, a second-hand dealer of that name. 539. Have you ever been inside there ?—I have. I should not think there is any means of exit except by coming out through the front door. There are only two rooms. 540. I would like to ask whether that is not a betting office ?—I have only heard it suggested. I know nothing of my own knowledge. 541. Is that one you reported on ?—No. 542. Did you follow it up when you heard about it?— Yes; but I could not get anything definite. 543. You referred to a betting office in Grey Street; where is the second one you reported on? —It was also in Grey Street. 544. Pretty expensive sites there ?—Yes. 545. Not the poorest part of the town ?—No. 546. How do they run these offices ?—From what I can see of them, they use the office for correspondence and receiving telegrams. 547. Have you been inside any one of them ?—Yes. 548. What for ?—To see what was going on. 549. What did you see ?—A few papers lying about, but no books of any kind.

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