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15. It had been in existence some time before you found it out. What wa,s the use of telling him then?—We wanted redress. - 16. How do you know about the carrying capacity of the Puhipuhi Block ?—I had it nine years. I came to it when leaving the Clarence. It carried nine thousand sheep. 17. How long did you hold it ?—Nine years. 18. Did you make a profit ?—No one on large, rough areas in New Zealand made a profit; the Labour Bill has killed every one. Most of the pioneer squatters have done no good. 19. When do you say the Marlborough leases expired ? —On the Ist March, 1897 ; and the exchange was made about three months before. 20. Had it only a month or two to run ? —Yes. 21. Then, you talk about the Monkey-face Eeserve : that was an application about the selling of it. They replied that they had no intention of selling it ?—The surveyor suggested that there should be a pastoral lease of three years. Our association objected to the sale. We communicated with the Minister. Mr. McCallum, on Messrs. Bullen's behalf, applied to the Land Board that it should be made freehold. 22. The Board, then, sold this recently ?—The Board resolved to sell it at the last meeting, according to the Express. 23. Mr. Flatman.] I notice that the witness had been originally requested to take a seat on the Board of Eeview ?—Yes ; it was done by Mr. Ballance. 24. You do not blame the Commissioners for anything ? —No; it is the fault of the system. 25. You think that Mr. Bullen got the best of the Commissioners?— Yes, certainly. If the members of the Board would go among the people they would get information, and could then judge for themselves. 26. You said the Hawke Hill property was weighted in favour of Mr. Bullen ? —Yes, undoubtedly. The report was made by the Chief Surveyer. It was advertised in the public Press without weighting, and at the last moment weighted in the Gazette. 27. Do you know at whose instigation it was weighted at the last moment?—No doubt, at Mr. Bullen's. 28. Mr. Bullen had no power unless the Land Board agreed ? —There is no doubt but that the Land Department yielded to him. 29. They would be at fault to have done that ?—No doubt. 30. If they did that they would do wrong?— Certainly; they did wrong. 31. If it was cut into small blocks, would many settlers go in for it? —Yes, if it was cut into small holdings—say, two. 32. What would it have fetched ?—£l an acre. 33. You would make more by it in two than one ?—The small man would improve it and make the land carry more stock. 34. Was there any pre-emptive right ?—lt had expired. 35. Then he had a pre-emptive right?—lt had expired. 36. As regards the Dog Hills, I understood the taxable value was £4,000 for 3,070 acres ? — That was Mr. Bullen's, and given to the Crown for the Dog Hills, about 480 acres at Green Hills Station. 37. Do you think the Estates Board's 16,600 acres fairly flat country? —A great deal of it is flat. There is no more valuable land in New Zealand. 38. Are there some fruits grown there now ?—Yes, at Quail Plat Station. The climate is suitable —hard frosts in winter, and the summer very warm. The land is excellent, and very suitable for fruits of all kinds. 39. Are the rabbits numerous there now ?—They poison a great many in the winter. 40. If these 16,000 acres were cut up for settlement, what size would be suitable?—lnto twelve or fourteen small grazing-runs, with suitable areas reserved for fruit-growing, &c. 41. Mr. Meredith.] Would Mr. Gibson explain the means of access to the Clarence country at present?—lt is over a high mountain-range, and difficult of access. There is no reason why a good road should not be made at a reasonable cost. 42. Is it possible for a vehicle to be taken into the Clarence by the present track ? —Yes, by the Upper Clarence Valley to Quail Plat. 43. Would you be surprised to know that Mr. Simms, late manager of the Clarence Run, had to pack in all his material and station requisites on horses ?—As far as packing the material he was right. I had a dray which was brought down the river. 44. You spoke of a dray-road from Hanmer to the Clarence?— Yes, it would be about sixtynine miles to Culverden. 45. You know the country: what do you estimate to be the approximate cost of taking in a road by the best available route to the Clarence country ? —That I could not tell you. There would be no engineering difficulties. 46. Would £10,000?— No. 47. Would £20,000 ?—Yes, and less. 48. It is on the snow-line ; it lies very long in the winter ? —lt is very local, the falls of snow. There has been less in the Clarence than on the coast at times. 49. We come to the Hawke Hills. You say that was included in the pre-emptive right held by Mr. Bullen?—Yes. 50. In the exchange of 3,070 acres for 9,000 acres, does this include the back slopes of Mount Horrible ? —lt does not take in Mount Horrible. 51. It takes in the shoulders and a portion of what is about the heights of Mount Horrible ?— No, only the low, good slopes of Mount Horrible. 52. Mount Horrible ranges from 1,500 ft. to 4,000 ft. and 5,000 ft. . It includes some of these