45

E.—3b

183. It could be closed and made dark? —No ; they have a window high up. 184. What are the cells made of?— Wood for the most part, with some of it iron. One had a wooden floor. I cannot speak positively about the other. 185. Is there a similar contrivance at Oaversham ?—Yes, but it is not used. 186. During your term of office, how many boys have absconded from Burnham?—The number is much smaller than it used to be. 187. How do you account for that?— They have been more efficiently controlled during the last year and a half. 188. Does the same remark apply to Caversham ?—Caversham has always had a high standard as regards absconders. This good conduct is owing to the personnel of the management. 189. And the personnel at Burnham is better now than it has been?— Yes; it is better than it has been in the past. 190. In reference to food, have you ever had any complaints from visiting officers in reference to the quantity or quality of the food at Stoke during your term of office ? —No. 191. Looking at the boys, do you consider that the standard of the boys, as regards physical conditions, is better or worse than at Burnham ?—I do not think there is very much difference. 192. I suppose you have not applied tests of weight, &c. ?—Not at this particular school. 193. With reference to the dinner-scale at Burnham, do you consider that it errs on the side of luxury?—l do not think it is luxurious ; I think it is liberal. 194. Mr. WardelL] How does it compare with the ordinary run of boarding-schools?—l do not think it is as good. The ordinary run of boarding-schools would have a large amount of butter and other luxuries. 195. Mr. Fell.] Is not 71b. of butter, divided between 112 boys, a small quantity ?—lt is about an ounce a week per head. It is enough, made up with dripping. 196. Looking at things all round, do you consider that an ordinary, middle-class family feeds its boys as well as that ? —As regards small boys, it does not feed them any better. As regards older boys, it is a question whether there is enough meat. It may be enough, if made up in other ways. 197. Do you consider that generally it is above that given by an ordinary middle-class house ? —No. 198. Mr. WardelL] Do you think that when a boy leaves school to go to work he is fed as well by his employer ? —I do not think he would get the same variety. In other respects he would be fed as well. 199. Mr. Fell.] Under ordinary circumstances, do you not think it is better than the ordinary artisan's food ? —I think from a dietetic point of view artisans would get better. 200. But from the point of view of attractiveness, do you think so ? —No. 201. What amount of meat is left from the joints ? What is done with it?— There are soups, pies, and stews. The amount of waste is very small. 202. Have you tried feeding the boys with bacon?— They have bacon on the programme, and they eat it. 203. In reference to the cost per head, do you know what the land and building at Burnham cost ? —No. 204. Is account taken of the food produced on the grounds ?—Yes ; they are all reckoned. In regard to some of these matters, things are in a state of transition at Burnham, and there has not been a complete farm-account kept. 205. Does the 7s. a week cost per head include the farm products ?—Yes; it represents the net, after giving credit for the farm. 206. How many are employed at Burnham ?—The manager, matron, sub-matron, two other women attendants, a cook (female), and seamstress. The manager's house is away from the institution. The sub-matron is the wife of the labour-master. There are also a male clerk, storeman, first and second farm-hands (the first being sub-manager of the farm), a gardener, a carpenter, bootmaker, tailor, schoolmaster, and schoolmistress. 207. Do you remember the total salaries ?—I cannot remember now; but I will tell you on Monday.

Monday, ,30th July, 1900. Geoege Hogben resumes his evidence. The Witness : With reference to the instrument of punishment, in expressing my opinion I would like to be clearly understood that it is simply my own opinion for what it is worth. Ido not in general think that strokes on the hand are a proper form of punishment. The safest way of doing it is by means of a broad strap, if it has to be administered on the hand. I think punishment should be administered on the fleshy part of the back by a cane, by which I mean a wellseasoned, light, and pliable cane, which, in my opinion, is hardly likely to do harm, and is more effective in producing temporary inconvenience of pain than the strap. I merely make this explanation because the question of punishment is not generally, in my opinion, sufficiently considered. In one of the newspapers lam reported as saying on Saturday that I saw fruit in glass dishes at Burnham. It was in large pie-dishes that I saw it. With regard to the opinion I was asked to express, I would like to say, in explanation, that the reason for the statement I made that it was not desirable to lower the diet, say at Burnham, is, in my opinion, a very important one. A good many of these boys are below normal physical development, and, in the opinion of the department, and such authorities as Douglas Morrison, a writer on juvenile delinquency, in order to give such children a proper start in life, the diet should be at least equal to that required for the normal healthy boy or girl. If you do not make it so, you will further arrest their