E.—l4

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president to prophesy, and it was a question of time, not only in the primary schools, but even in boys' secondary schools, when mistresses would to some extent take the place of masters. It is simply an index of the general tendency that is taking place everywhere, and I think it is an index of prosperity too. If the pay of teachers were higher men would be attracted from the other professions; but it would take a much higher rate of pay than you are likely to get under any scale; it is not only a question of the present pay, but of the future pay. Look at a boy in an office, for instance : he is considered fairly well paid for the first two years at 10s. a week, but it is not the question of pay that induces him to enter the office; it is the fact that it launches him into business. 220. Mr. Weston.] In some respects is not the headmaster of these schools responsible for the selection of the female over the male pupil-teachers ?—lt might be so in a few cases, but I think generally the headmaster is anxious to get a good proportion of male pupil-teachers. 221. Mr. Gilfedder.] You consider, according to your reply to Mr. Davidson, that a scheme of superannuation or retiring allowance as far as the Education Board is concerned, is impracticable without their taking advantage of the insurance companies ?—I think the number of teachers we have is below the minimum the actuaries would accept. Ido not think they would take less than 10,000 lives. Mr. Stewart: I think that answer was in reference to my question. My argument was that a time should arise when the teachers should be compulsorily retired; for the Government to devise a scheme of satisfactory retirement. Mr. Hogben: In reply to Mr. Gilfedder's question, I simply express that, as far as my general knowledge goes—knowledge which is, I suppose, common to the rest of the Commission—to make a separate and safe scheme for insurance we should have a larger number of lives than we have. 223. Mr. Davidson.] Is it not a fact, Mr. Hogben, that in South Australia, where they certainly have nothing like 10,000 teachers, they have arranged a superannuation scheme for the teachers of the colony ?—You mean the State promises to make up the amount or guarantees the payments. 224. The Chairman.] A State scheme?— Yes. 225. Mr. Gilfedder.] You suggest to make a reduction in the salaries for teachers' certificates —those below the minimum. There is no provision to give a bonus to those of higher certificates ? —No. 226. Do you think it is equitable that this liability to reduction should apply to teachers already in the service, or should it apply to those who will be appointed after this system comes into vogue ?—I myself feel very strongly on that. I see arguments both ways for it. It was partly in order to offer inducements to teachers in some of the best schools to take up the profession for life. There are points of injustice, though ; it might seem to interfere with the discretion of Boards in the appointment of teachers indirectly ; it does not do so directly. There are plenty of teachers, in spite of all certificates that you could draw, with lower certificates, quite as good in every way, and also as regards literary attainment. Sometimes Boards go very much further in the positive direction—this is what I call the negative; they give larger salaries for higher certificates—for instance, Wanganui and Wellington. 227. Mr. Weston.] Sometimes a teacher might be a little affected by age ?—-Yes. In spite of all efforts to the contrary, we have not succeeded—nor do I think we are likely to succeed in the present state of things—in giving a uniform system of marking by Inspectors. In districts where Inspectors took a liberal view the salaries would be a little higher. In the thirteen different districts there are different men, so is there a difference in the views taken. 228. Mr. Gilfedder.] I think, Mr. Hogben, you forestalled my next question with regard to the centralisation of the inspectorate. You know, I suppose, that the Inspectors at a conference passed a resolution in favour of centralising the inspectorate ?—Yes. 229. You consider that there are a rather large number of pupil-teachers in the colony?— Yes. 230. This only pertains to a few education districts ?— Yes. 231. Your idea is to place assistants in the schools instead of pupil-teachers : where will you get your assistants from ? I think you said the training-colleges ; but what opportunities will young people have on the West Coast, in Southland, and such districts of getting trainingcolleges ?—Give them scholarships in order to come for their training to the places where the training-colleges would be established. 232. Mr. Weston.] How many need there be ?—Four. 233. Would the cost of these scholarships come out of the £4 capitation ?—No; quite distinct altogether. To supplement that the Minister indicated in his report there would have to be at every place where there was an Education Board training classes for teachers who could not get scholarships. 234. Mr. Gilfedder.] Do you not consider it would be more satisfactory if all the teachers' examinations were conducted by the department ? At the present time you require to keep terms,and teachers are under a great disadvantage. The head-teachers of our main schools in the colony are Class Dl. They have not had the opportunities the rising generation have at the present time of attending the university and taking a degree. I consider that the examinations should be conducted by the department up to Class A?— Your question is to some extent based on a misconception of the circumstances. It is not necessary that a teacher who wishes to get Class A, &c, should fulfil any of the conditions required by the university. He can sit for the examination just the same as if the department held it; it is not necessary he should keep terms or anything else. 235. Do I understand from you that a candidate may take a group of subjects, such as political science, for the M.A. degree, and if he pass with first- or second-class honours, he will get a Class A certificate ?—He must take subjects that will give him a B certificate first. He could do it, certainly ; a great many Cs have done it, and one or two Bs.