-t. W. ELLIS.]

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I.—3a.

plaints at different times; but Ido not know that they have ever objected to the amount of the royalty. When the Natives thoroughly understand a bargain they very seldom try to repudiate it. 171. In your answer to the Native Minister you said that you would not mind submitting the validity of your agreement to a Judge of the Supreme Court: do I understand you have a desire to do so ?—I have no desire to, certainly. 172. Nor do you think that an agreement entered into, that you thought perfectly legal and valid, should be submitted for test to a legal tribunal? —I do not think there should be anything of that sort. It seems to me to be very late in the day to raise that question. 173. Beviewing the value of the timber, if it were possible to do so, in the light of presentday circumstances would afford no criterion as to what it was worth twelve years ago, nor could you go back to that position if you tried ?—I do not think so. We are paying decidedly higher royalties for the Hohotaka bush than we are paying the Crown on similar land. 174. The Chairman.] Mr. Bemington is trying to elicit from you whether timber is higher in value now than it was twelve years ago ? —That is so. 175. Mr. Remington.] At that time there was what is called a slump in timber, and there was not the demand for good timber that there is to-day ? —No ; and we do not know what the trade will be like twelve years hence. 176. The Chairman.] You take the risk —the glorious uncertainty of that?— Yes. 177. Mr. Wi Pere.] How many classes of totara are there ?—Four. 178. Will you describe them ?—Best —the heart; rough heart; ordinary building—that would be mostly sap ; and second class—bark, and so on. 179. That is the practice with that class of timber, to have four classes ?—Well, of course, each district varies in some respects. 180. I do not think you ought to say that, because there are only two descriptions of totara —• one is red and the other is white ; and no matter what description of tree it is, it is always the same —one is white in colour and the other is red ?—I would like to point out the honeycomb. 181. Only where the kaikaka has got inside the tree ; but there are only two colours —red and white ?—I should very much like you to come up and see the timber we have stacked there, and you would see the different classes, and honeycomb in the totara heart. 182. Kaikaka is only the white totara ? —I may say we are only novices in working totara, and are following the practice of other districts. 183. Ido not want Mr. Ellis to think lam finding fault with his agreement. lam surprised to hear that there are four different classes of totara, because I will bring all the Maoris in the place to prove that this is not the case. I want to say that if there are speeches to be made lam certainly going to say what I have to say. My second question is, Who do you want to give effect to your agreement ?—I believe the law has already given effect to it. 184. Has it been registered ? —lt is only an agreement. 185. Under which law do you consider it is already confirmed?— Under the common law. Mr. Wi Pere : I should like to know under which law it is—what part of the law it is—that you consider has made this agreement valid. Ido not want this brought into the Supreme Court, but just in the cheapest way to give effect to it, and then it is quite open; because Mr. Ellis's agreement, as compared with another agreement brought up here, is an all-right one. I can only describe the other agreement as being a Satan. 186. Mr. Hone Heke.] How many grades do you make out of totara?—Four. 187. Will you tell us the price for which you dispose of your first grade in Auckland?—We dispose of it on the truck at Mangapeehi. 188. On the truck, what would you sell your first grade at? —Sixteen shillings is our price to the Public Works and other Government Departments. 189. How do you deal with the other grades—second, third, and fourth ?—Bough heart is lis. 6d. —that is, on the trucks. The other grade is 135., freight paid, the 0.8. ; that is a big class. 190. Not on the truck ?—No. There is a great difference between them. 191. How do you deal with the second class? —The second class is 10s., also freight paid. 192. How many grades do you make in matai ? —There are four grades in matai. 193. Are they the same as the other?— They are not quite the same. 194. Do you mind giving me the grades?— Heart, rough heart, 0.8., and what we call a fencing class. 195. How do you dispose of the first —heart :on the truck? —No, not on the truck. At 155., freight paid. 196. How do you dispose of the second grade?— That is 135., freight paid, also. 197. And the third, 0.8. ?—The second is rough heart, 125., and the other is 135., 0.8. ; freight paid in each case. 198. And this fencing class? —That is 7s. on the truck. 199. How do you deal with the rimu—in grades ? —We have four grades in that. 200. On the same lines as the matai ? —Hardly the same. 201. Do you mind giving them? —Heart, rough heart, 0.8., second class. 202. On the truck?—No ; freight paid. 203. What would be the first?—lss. 204. Bough heart ?—lis. 6d. 205. Freight paid ?—Yes. 206. 0.8. ?—l2s. 6d., freight paid. 207. And second class ?—9s. 6d. Freight paid in all cases. 208. And the kahikatea—four grades ?—Kahikatea is an export timber.