I.—lo.

30

[S. T. MIBAMS.

403. Do you remember Steven and Co. seceding ?—No. I have all the letters connected with the Flour-millers' Association, and A. Steven and Co.'s letters are mixed up with them. 404. Have you any letters from the Flour-millers' Association with regard to Steven and Co.'s competition ? —No. 405. Did any of the letters refer to the competition going on in Dunedin in connection with the sale of flour? —That is rather a wide question. I shall have to go through the whole letterbook for that. There are no letters indexed to the Flour-millers' Association or to the local representative. There is a letter of the 6th April to Steven and Co., directing their attention to a breach of the agreement recently made by reducing the price of sacks, signed by Mr. Einger ; and there is a reply dated the 7th April, in which they say they were not responsible for the reduction in the price of flour. 406. Has there beet* any financial transaction between the Flour-millers' Association and the Bakers' Union ?—None whatever. 407. No sums of money voted ?—No; none from the Flour-millers' Association. 408. How did you communicate in Dunedin with the Flour-millers' Association—by correspondence or verbally ?—As much verbally as by writing. 409. More verbally?—lt would be about equal, I should say. 410. Mr. Hardy.] Is the baking business a profitable one?—l do not hear of any of our members making a fortune out of it, but they now say that they are getting a price that pays them to make bread. 411. How long have you been connected with the Bakers' Union?— About six months. 412. Have you heard that there were a great many insolvencies taking place in the past?—l have heard them say frequently that previous to the union being formed there was so much cutting that it was impossible to make a livelihood, and that now that the union is loyal to the prices fixed by the union they can make a fair competence. 413. At the present time there are not a greater number of insolvencies than in other trades ? —No ; I should say the business was on a sound basis. 414. You do not know of your own knowledge what profits the bakers make?— No. 415. Do you know of any mills outside the Millers' Association ?—I know of mills. 416. Do they keep up a supply of flour?—l believe it is always available, and that any one can buy it. 417. Any one can buy flour outside the millers' trust ?—Yes, certainly. 418. Can the members of the union purchase sufficient flour outside the millers' trust if they so desire it ?—I should say so, undoubtedly. 419. Are bakers who are not in the Bakers' Union in any way curtailed with regard to supplies outside the Millers' Association ?—Why, I cannot say, but it frequently happens that a baker who is not in the union is rather a weak mark, and millers do not care to supply him. 420. Can he get sufficient supplies for his trade outside the trust ?—That I cannot say. 421. You know that there are millers outside the association ?—Undoubtedly ; Evans and Co., of the Crown Mills, and Steven and Co. They both have large mills. 422. And they are in a position to supply the amount of flour required ?—I should say so, undoubtedly. 423. Mr. Rutherford.] Who fixes the price of bread ?—The Bakers' Union. 424. Then does the trust or association have anything to do with the fixing the price ?—No ; it is purely a question of the price of flour. The bakers fix their own price for bread, not the flourmillers. 425. Mr. Hogg.] In fixing the price of bread, of course it varies in different parts of New Zealand ?—Yes. 426. Is the price fixed by the union in the different localities or by the branches?— Each union stands on its own bottom. There is a Dunedin Union and a Christchurch Union, but they have nothing to do with fixing each other's prices. 427. How many different unions are there ? There are also the Wellington Union and the Auckland Union ?—Yes ; I do not know the number. 428. Do they fix the price for the small townships?—No ; twelve miles out of Dunedin they fix their own price. We have members of our Union who live in Lawrence, but they are not bound by the price charged in Dunedin, because they have to allow for the cost of railage and so forth. 429. Has the price of bread been increased or lowered since the Millers' Association was formed ?—Well, it has fluctuated. 430. But taking it over a number of years ? —From the minute-book I gather that it has been lower and much higher than it is now. 431. Take the average over a period of three or four years : can you tell us whether the price has gone up or down ? —I know that it has fluctuated backwards and forwards. 432. And wheat and flour have fluctuated in the same way ?—Quite so. 433. And so has the cost of manufacture, the wages, rent of premises, and everything else ?— Yes, wages have been increased. 434. And what about the other items of cost ?—That is a question more for a baker to answer; it does not come into my department at all. 435. The Chairman.] Can you tell the percentage of increased cost in making bread now compared with what it was five or six years ago ?—No, I have never gone into that question with the bakers ; mine is purely an administrative office. 436. You cannot tell us what effect the increased wages and shorter hours have had upon the cost of the producing mills? —No ; I cannot answer that question. 437. Mr. Loughnan.] Were you with the union when that correspondence commenced in April between Steven and Co. and your union ?—I was appointed on the 22ud April, and was not there at that time.