I.—lo.

76

[C. A. LOUGHNAN.

279. I suppose it is within your knowledge that a good deal of gristing is done for farmers ?— Yes. 280. And it is of considerable convenience to them to be able to take their wheat to the mill and get back bran and pollard ?—Yes ; and also for storekeepers. 281. In the event of this Flour-millers' Association being a close corporation, are there not sufficient outside mills to supply the people who allege that they have had their demands restricted —could they not get their supplies from these other little mills?— Yes. 282. Do you think there are sufficient mills for that purpose ? —Yes ; there are quite as many outside the combine as in it. 283. Consequently bakers and others who want flour can get it outside of the association ?— Yes. I may say the policy of the association since I have been a director is not to combine with the Bakers' Union with the object of preventing anybody getting flour who is prepared to pay for it. The policy has been changed. There is no combination to cut off anybody's flour at all. lean give you an example of how the bakers act within my own experience. There was a baker who started cutting in Palmerston North. Some of my flour got into his bakehouse—whether he got it from the association or from a merchant I do not know—but a deputation from people who are my principal customers, and without whom I cannot live at all, waited on me and said, " If we find a bag of your flour in that man's place again you never shall sell another bag to us." I had to be very emphatic, and told them that he should not have another bag. 284. Do you know anything about the Bankruptcy Court, and the number of people who go through it ? —Yes. 285. Have you ever looked up the baking industry ? Is it not a fact that it was notorious the number of bankruptcies that occurred before tbe bakers formed themselves into unions?—l have heard it said pretty constantly ; but I can put in here a letter which gives a list of bankruptcies connected with the baking industry during 1901 and 1902—it is compiled from the Mercantile Gazette. 286. Did not more bakers go through the Court before they formed themselves into unions?— The figures show you that. In 1897, 16 bakers became bankrupt; in 1898, 11; in 1899, 11; in 1900, 8 ; in 1901, 6 ; in 1902, 3. That is a summary of the list. 287. What do you think is the position of the trade—is it on a sounder footing now than it was two or three years back? —I have had no real experience in the matter. 1 can only speak from the figures, but it is obvious that it must be so. We have also heard some of the bakers on the subject. 288. The Chairman.] Have you a list of the same nature regarding the flour-millers ?—No. 289. Hon. Sir J. G. Ward.] Will you amplify the answer which you intended to make when you were interrupted —namely, whether if the whole of the flour-millers were in the association that would not haye a tendency to bring about a corner in wheat ?—Every miller tries to buy his wheat against his neighbour. There is no machinery under the association—which is purely a selling and not a buying agent—by which it can interfere or control a private individual in his dealings with the fanner. A combination of three or four could possibly fix a price and adhere to it, but a combination of the number of mill-owners that there are in the colony—situated as they are in the different localities and under different circumstances, each man trying to get better terms than his neighbour —absolutely prohibits, to my mind, anything like a corner in wheat being formed. 290. Mr. Taylor.] But, still, if the aim of the association to combine all tbe millers in New Zealand were accomplished—you cannot deny that that is the wish of the association—would it not be possible for the association to deal with the buying of wheat, and fix its own price to the farmer ? —I do not think so, because they would have to provide a buying agency. They would have to say to the individual, " You must stand aside and allow us to intervene and buy." Then they would have a corner; but that is not within the scope of the memorandum of association of the association, and the memorandum of association cannot be altered in any way. 291. It has been said that its methods are elastic?— There is no elasticity in the memorandum of association, and it cannot be modified in any way. 292. Only by new organization ?—Only by new organization. The American system is different. It centralises and produces such a result that a butchering establishment can sell meat at less per pound than it pays for it alive. It makes its profit out of the offal, the hair, and the hide, and the manure, which is one of the products. That is the trust, against which no individual can compete.

Wednesday, 21st October, 1903. T. E. Taylor, M.H.E., attended and addressed the Committee. (No. 19.) Mr. Taylor : 1 propose, Mr. Chairman, to follow closely the various charges set out in my note to you as Chairman of the Committee, and to take these charges seriatim ; and then as briefly as possible to quote from the evidence which has been adduced in support of each charge. In my memorandum to you, first of all, I said, " That the constitution of the association, as set forth in the agreement signed by each miller joining the association, was designed to restrict the output of the flour-mills of the colony at the public expense," and I propose to quote one or two lines from the agreement of the association to show that that was clearly the principal object of the association. In the preamble it says, "Each mill-owner shall supply to the said association flour manufactured in his mill to the extent and on the terms and conditions hereinafter mentioned." I say that that is primarily the object of the association, and that intention is amplified very fully where it says that'"For the purposes of this agreement and for