G.—s.

68

[j. N. WILLIAMS

would be a row; and a row there was sure enough, because the Natives began to fight each other over the sale of that land. They built pas at Pakowhai and Wakatu. There was some considerable amount of fighting, and some people were killed. Finally Hapuku retired to Te Hauke, and the matter was eventually compromised. Sir Donald McLean paid the Natives over again for the same piece of land, and that settled the matter. I wish to compliment Sir George Grey on his foresight in getting the Archdeacon to live in Hawke's Bay, and I know from my own knowledge through living on the spot that if it had not been for the Archdeacon's presence there fighting would have been with the Europeans, instead of Maori against Maori. It was an exact counterpart of what took place afterwards at Taranaki, where the fighting was with the Europeans. I just want to refer to that because I knew what influence the Archdeacon had over the Natives in the district, and how he kept them friendly with the Europeans when they otherwise would have been violent Hauhaus a very few years later on. 248. Mr. Hogg.] How often do the trustees meet?—We are called together whenever there is business to do. 249. Do you receive any report regarding the College?— No. 250. You do not discuss the management of the College?—l quite admit we have done what would have been entirely inadmissible if it had not been for the peculiar circumstances in this case: the powers delegated to the Rev. Mr. Williams in 1863. We have never disturbed that. Daniel Ellison, Jun., examined. Mr. Ellison: I wish to make a few remarks on behalf of the Natives whom 1 represent. I will deal first with this gift. There is the intention of the gift. I think you are all clear on that point—that is, it was solely intended for the Native children; and also that it was given so that the Native boys should be taught in all the different, branches of education —general knowledge and industries. The first part of it has been given effect to—that is, in regard to higher education; but the other part has not been attended to- —the manual and technical branches. It is the earnest desire of the Natives whom I represent that manual and technical education should be introduced into the College. There is another question which affects the donors of the land: According to the forms of application, half-castes and others are expected to pay before they are admitted into the College. The Natives are somewhat anxious about that, because they say that later on, as halfcastes become more numerous they will still be expected to pay, and yet the forefathers of those children gave the land. They want to make it so that their children should not have to pay. We wish that the descendants of the donors should be admitted free to the school. 251. The Chairman (to Mr. Ellison).] You do not object to wealthy Natives paying if they choose ?—No. 252. You do not suggest that any Native has been refused admission to the College because he has not been able to pay ?—No. 253. With respect to the subdivision of the estate, do you wish to say anything about that?— I do not think it would be advisable to cut the estate up into smaller areas—at all events while Archdeacon Williams's influence is there, because his influence means a great deal. 254. Mr. Hogg.] Do you know whether any applications have been made on behalf of Maori children to be admitted to the College and they have been unsuccessful?- —I have heard it said, but I could not point to any case. They may be refused one year and admitted the following year. Sometimes boys get tired of waiting and go back to their homes. 255. Do you approve of the question appearing on the application form as to whether the applicant is prepared to pay school fees—£2s a year ?—I do not see any reason why it should be struck out, because it is voluntary. . 255 a. In the case of a vacancy, do you think the paying boy would be admitted, whereas the non-paying boy would be unable to gain admission ?—I should think, unless it was the case of a local boy who was unable to pay, that preference should be given to the one able to pay. 256. But you would prefer to have it absolutely free?— Yes, with regard to the local boys. 257. Mr. Lee.] If there were more applications than could be granted, and if the scope of the College were enlarged, do you not think it would be a fair thing to charge for the board and give the education free? —I would not mind if outsiders were charged. I would not like to see it put on to the local boys, because their ancestors gave the land. 258. Mr, Eliott.] What do you mean by the local boys?— Say from Petane up to Tahoraiti— Dannevirke. The people who gave the land lived from Petane up to Ahuriri. 259. The Chairman.] If the Native people of other districts were to endow this College with land or grants, you would be in favour of admitting their children on the same terms? —Yes.

Monday, the 28th May, 1906. Hugh Campbell examined. 1. The Chairman.] What are you?—l am a sheep-farmer, at Poukawa. 2. How long have you been in the district? —Thirty-eight years. 3. I understand you tender yourself as a witness, as you desire to make a statement to the Commission ?—Yes, just in regard to the value of the Te Aute land. 4. You know the Te Aute trust estate?— Fairly well. I have not seen much of it of late years; but I have been over it at different times. I think the rent mentioned during the Commission , : —viz., £2,200 a year —is a fair rent. It may be a little under the mark, the way things are at present ; but considering the way they were at the time the lease was granted, I think the rent was a very, fair one at that time.