J. H. POPE.j

77

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Maori is going to learn quite as quickly what the European learns. But the reason of that is that the European has all the advantage derivable from practical familiarity on his own side, when he is learning European matters. Ido not know whether ancestral aptitude has anything to do with it, possibly it has. At first there is with the Maori a kind of stiffness in acquiring European culture and science, and so forth; but, supposing this to be worn off, I should, if asked to decide, on my oath, between a first-class Maori and a first-class European, declare that 1 do not believe there is any difference between the two. However, this is a digression. If a master is judicious and careful, and is capable of preventing the arising of racial jealousy between his Maori boys and his European boys, I think it would be quite advantageous to have them educated together. The Maoris would certainly learn a great deal from the Europeans, and Europeans, I think, would learn from educated Maori boys little or no evil. On the whole, I should like to leave the question as to whether it is desirable that Maori and European boys should be taught together quite open, unless some member of the Commission would kindly suggest some particular line I should take. On any special point I could probably give a more definite answer. 9. I suppose in your travels you have seen a great deal of the Maoris?-—Yes. 10. Is it your opinion that it would be better to devote the income from this endowment to manual and. technical instruction—making the education industrial rather than secondary? — For my own part I think it is only fair play to the Maoris —I shall come to the educational expediency of it directly—to give those Maoris who are capable of receiving it as good a chance as is given to the Europeans, who have their high schools and colleges, at which they can be taught the very best things by the very best men. I think the Maoris should have exactly the same opportunity. The tone that is aimed at for the European should be aimed at also for the Maori. Of course, it may be that I have been so long with the Maoris that I feel almost a Maori in some points myself; but you will be able to discount my partiality, if you think I exaggerate. 11. We want to know exactly what is your opinion?— Well, that is my view. 12. What industrial training took place during your time at Te Aute?—The boys learnt to use carpenters' tools, and though the progress was not very great, it was considerable. It was worth taking account of. It was not a thing done now and again; it was carried on systematically. It was gradually shelved, I think, partly because the money-supply was rather too little. An attempt was made to get the work done by masters rather than by a practised technical teacher. I think now, looking back on the past, that it would have been a very good thing indeed if a technical master could have been appointed. The thing could have been made rather more " 6we11," if I may use the expression, and not a mere " hanger-on " of the other work. 13. Can you give us any idea as to the percentage of boys who pass through the school who would be fitted for the learned professions and other higher walks in life?—l could prepare you a paper from the material I have at home. I know the number of boys who matriculated at different times was very considerable. Probably members of the Commission could answer that question better than I could, seeing that I have had nothing to do with the school since I examined it for the last time. But one would think that from 7to 10 per cent, of the boys in the upper division would matriculate eventually. There has, I understand, been less success in this direction of late years. Of course, we all know very well that even if a boy does not quite succeed in getting through, he derives a great deal of good from the mere preparation of the work. If you ask me what percentage of the boys were very decidedly benefited by the so-called higher education, even the old-fashioned higher education, I should say 50 per cent, at the very least. Of course, one would find it almost impossible to express the relative value of the two things with the accuracy that is given by numbers. I cannot say that so many of those I knew were benefited by one kind of instruction and so many by another. I should be glad, if you wished me to do so, to send you a list of the percentages of the boys who have passed the Matriculation Examination. 14. I suppose you have followed the career of these boys after leaving school?— Many of them; but not so many as I could have wished, and for this reason : they are so very widely scattered. I hear of them now and again. Sometimes one is told of a misadventure, where the system appears not to have answered; but on the whole I think the results have been good. 15. Do you think it would be better to pay more attention to the industrial side of the question than is given now?—Oh, most undoubtedly. 16. Do you think that the industrial teaching should be the main feature of the school?— Well, & main feature certainly. 17. A prominent feature? —Yes. If you take "main " as a superlative, my answer would be in the negative; but taking it as the word is ordinarily used, I should say, " Yes." 18. Has it been a prominent feature?—No; but at the time that I have already spoken about, within its own limits it had considerable importance, but you would not have said, "Well, you know handwork at Te Aute is quite a prominent subject." It received a useful amount of attention ; but full steam was not kept on sufficiently long to get all the good out of it that might have been got. 19. Did you ever have any conferences with the trustees on the question ?—Yes; and I have even had conferences with single members of the trust, 20. And with Archdeacon Williams?— Yes, very often. 21. I suppose you have read the newspaper reports of the evidence given by the trustees in Napier before us ? —I have seen the outlines of it. 22. You see they are unanimously willing that prominence should be given to the industrial side of the instruction, and that the Archdeacon is also willing?—lf prominence means that it is to stand out beyond everything I should greatly prefer to see it made of equal rank with the other work. I should go with them so far, but not quite all the way. I have here a copy of some of my old reports, and should like, with your permission, to read one or two extracts from them. In my report on the year 1901, contained in E.-2, 1902, I said: "The educated men of the